Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Stefan de Konink]

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Op 29-03-10 17:24, Arlindo Pereira schreef:
> Just read again my messagem and realized that it sounded a little
> arrogant. The thing is that the slums' footpaths are very narrow,
> therefore the tracks are way too much unaligned.
> 
> We had a couple of meetings and I said that we (Claudomiro and I) could
> try to arrange fundings to buy satellite imagery or good GPS units,
> showed them how wonderful Walking Papers is, but they weren't interested. :(

That was arrogant from their side. But as I explained, if you have some
people rewalking paths over and over again. You get pretty roads too.



Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Arlindo Pereira]

Just read again my messagem and realized that it sounded a little arrogant.
The thing is that the slums' footpaths are very narrow, therefore the tracks
are way too much unaligned.

We had a couple of meetings and I said that we (Claudomiro and I) could try
to arrange fundings to buy satellite imagery or good GPS units, showed them
how wonderful Walking Papers is, but they weren't interested. :(

Cheers

2010/3/29 Stefan de Konink 

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> Hash: SHA512
>
> Op 29-03-10 12:14, Arlindo Pereira schreef:
> > This is a Wikimapa example:
> http://wikimapa.org.br/mapeados?community_id=5
> >
> > Notice that it is pretty
> > much as OSM (restaurants, fast food, sports and so on). Also notice that
> > their tracks are abs. garbage (my personal opinion) because they're
> > uploaded directly from the cellphone without any treatment.
>
> So what? As was discussed before and suggested by me when I actually
> joined the project. There is absolutely no reason to manually retrace
> GPX/NMEA tracks. Enough research is done to dynamically update maps
> based on GPS logs alone. Adding names is a completely different thing.
>
>
> Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Stefan de Konink]

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Op 29-03-10 12:14, Arlindo Pereira schreef:
> This is a Wikimapa example: http://wikimapa.org.br/mapeados?community_id=5
> 
> Notice that it is pretty
> much as OSM (restaurants, fast food, sports and so on). Also notice that
> their tracks are abs. garbage (my personal opinion) because they're
> uploaded directly from the cellphone without any treatment.

So what? As was discussed before and suggested by me when I actually
joined the project. There is absolutely no reason to manually retrace
GPX/NMEA tracks. Enough research is done to dynamically update maps
based on GPS logs alone. Adding names is a completely different thing.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Mikel Maron]

Frederik,


> Maybe, but I am happy with OSMF keeping a low profile. Before the last 
> election to the OSMF board, lofty plans were circulated how to make OSMF 
> into a strong organisation with 10.000 members and hire full-time 
> personnel for fundraising and management. I opposed these ideas because 
> I feel that such an organisation would quickly turn into a self-feeding 
> behemoth that is more at home in the corporate world than in OSM.

FWIW, I entirely share these concerns Frederik. 

Though the details have changed, I do still consider it high priority for OSMF 
to consider how it will respond to growth of the project. Honestly, we're 
already
over capacity in OSMF. We can not avoid considering changes to how we operate
in order to support the community. Wikimapa is just one example where we might 
have
had some influence if prepared for it.

But absolutely yes, when considering funding, the top consideration is to make 
sure 
that basic volunteer premise of OSM is not compromised.

> If someone wants to approach sponsors on a local or national level, 
> that's no problem and I am sure that OSMF will give them the support 
> they need. (We run a similar setup here in Germany where FOSSGIS e.V. 
> will help out anyone who needs a "legal contact" or someone to sign a 
> contract - but they don't, on their own, go searching for sponsors.)

I think to properly give these kind of efforts support, OSMF needs to be
in a stronger position. Honestly, the sponsors are already out there, but
they will require OSMF to be more responsive.

> If, on the other hand, there is nobody who wants to do the hard work of 
> finding sponsors, then why should OSMF - they're only people like you 
> and me. Ask them to do things that nobody in the project wants to do 
> himself and you are inevitably asking to set up an organisation that 
> uses money to pay people to do the jobs that nobody in the project wants 
> to do.

It's not that nobody wants to do these jobs, but that there isn't enough time
in the day to even think about how to structure OSMF so this kind of 
work can be done in a volunteer fashion.

> Certainly a valid way of advancing the project, but in my eyes it 
> carries the danger of, little by little, taking the whole project out of 
> the hands of hobbyists. Before too long, we'll be a membership 
> organisation where central command runs the GPS vans and individual 
> participation is reduced to paying a membership fee and receiving a 
> bi-monthly full-colour membership magazine.

Give me a break man! We will definitely make it a weekly magazine! ;)

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Mikel Maron]

> The only pattern I see is that the OSMF is not putting the same  
> efforts in fundsraising in compare to the decentralized projects. At  
> least are not successfull at it.
> 
> Too busy with licenses maybe? (yes that was a flame)

This is something I put considerable effort into. It would be great to have
more contributions into this effort. A working group has been proposed
during OSMF Board meetings, but I've not yet had the chance to organize.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Mikel Maron]

> On 29 March 2010 21:24, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> > As far as I know, the monetary return of GSoC for OSM is negligible. The
> > students get the bulk of the money, and the only incentive for OSM is the
> > hope of something valuable for the project being created by them.
> 
> How is this any different than using money donated to OSM-F to do
> similar work, and then extending that to do say administrative tasks
> for the foundation itself?
> 
> As you said it's a slippery slope, but OSM is already on it...

I'm not sure how this came up (reading through the thread now)
but in the one case I'm aware of when OSMF was funded for administrative
tasks, it was through the SOTM scholarship program, and it was explicitly
budgeted. As for general OSMF admin tasks (like accounting), presently this is 
entirely
volunteer, though growing in complexity and time commitment constantly,
and IMO would be wise to engage professionals in such in the long term.
That would be quite explicitly indicated in any budget.

Best
-Mikel

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Mikel Maron]

> There seems to be a pattern there. I recently met someone who was active 
> with greenmap.org which seems to be hardly more than a project 
> collecting POIs based on Google maps ("OpenGreenMap"). They seem to 
> regularly attract government funding for project meetings or printed 
> maps of local areas. I saw one such map - it was a Google aerial image 
> with a few POIs marked on top.

Just to defend Green Maps, the project is a whole lot more than OpenGreenMap.
They've been operating since 1995, originally all paper (and still 
predominantly so),
and very much invested in community processes. For me at least, they were quite
influential in my getting involved in web mapping, prior to OSM being invented.

http://www.greenmap.org/greenhouse/en/about

I agree that nowadays they'd be wise to adopting the OpenStreetMap 
infrastructure.
But do give them props, very cool, early folks in collaborative mapping.

-Mikel
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2010/3/29 Frederik Ramm :
> In the OpenStreetMap world view, their contribution to Open Data is zero
> because Google owns their derived work; yet the European Union and other
> sponsors seem not to care much.

Maybe the EU doesn't know about this and it would be a start to make
them know, e.g. the foundation could inform them?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[John Smith]

On 29 March 2010 21:24, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> As far as I know, the monetary return of GSoC for OSM is negligible. The
> students get the bulk of the money, and the only incentive for OSM is the
> hope of something valuable for the project being created by them.

How is this any different than using money donated to OSM-F to do
similar work, and then extending that to do say administrative tasks
for the foundation itself?

As you said it's a slippery slope, but OSM is already on it...

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

John Smith wrote:
> I'm not disagreeing with you, money can be the root of all evil, but
> some times there has to be a little pragmatism also, in the end it
> comes down to balance, after all if all money was bad OSM wouldn't be
> participating in GSoC either...

As far as I know, the monetary return of GSoC for OSM is negligible. The 
students get the bulk of the money, and the only incentive for OSM is 
the hope of something valuable for the project being created by them.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[John Smith]

On 29 March 2010 19:14, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Certainly a valid way of advancing the project, but in my eyes it
> carries the danger of, little by little, taking the whole project out of
> the hands of hobbyists. Before too long, we'll be a membership

And if there is too many tasks others won't do then things could stall
for other reasons.

I'm not disagreeing with you, money can be the root of all evil, but
some times there has to be a little pragmatism also, in the end it
comes down to balance, after all if all money was bad OSM wouldn't be
participating in GSoC either...

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Arlindo Pereira]

This is a Wikimapa example: http://wikimapa.org.br/mapeados?community_id=5

Notice that it is pretty
much as OSM (restaurants, fast food, sports and so on). Also notice that
their tracks are abs. garbage (my personal opinion) because they're uploaded
directly from the cellphone without any treatment.

Cheers

2010/3/29 John Smith 

> On 29 March 2010 14:45, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason  wrote:
> > This is the first link on their front page:
> > http://www.youmap.eu/?page=PrjHome&prj=91&mid=432
>
> Sorry, I thought you were talking about wikimapa.org.br :)
>
> The problem with this sort of content at present is the ideology of
> those making editors where they display everything all the time.
>
> Another solution is something like OSM Bugs which has a separate
> database, but the data can still be pulled into OSM editors.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El 29/03/2010 12:02, Frederik Ramm escribió:
> Hi,
>
> Stefan de Konink wrote:
>>> Before too long, we'll be a membership
>>> organisation where central command runs the GPS vans and individual
>>> participation is reduced to paying a membership fee and receiving a
>>> bi-monthly full-colour membership magazine.
>
>> Will we call the magazine `Steve'?
>
> No; that would attract too many cheap imitations.

Cheap? I bet that the imitation would be printed on glossy paper!

:-P


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Stefan de Konink wrote:
>> Before too long, we'll be a membership 
>> organisation where central command runs the GPS vans and individual 
>> participation is reduced to paying a membership fee and receiving a 
>> bi-monthly full-colour membership magazine.

> Will we call the magazine `Steve'?

No; that would attract too many cheap imitations.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Stefan de Konink]

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Maybe, but I am happy with OSMF keeping a low profile. Before the last 
> election to the OSMF board, lofty plans were circulated how to make OSMF into 
> a strong organisation with 10.000 members and hire full-time personnel for 
> fundraising and management. I opposed these ideas because I feel that such an 
> organisation would quickly turn into a self-feeding behemoth that is more at 
> home in the corporate world than in OSM.

My point is that the OSMF does `cash' from contributions such as GSoC 
while the local parties cannot participate in instead of the `strong' 
organisation. But I agree, be careful what to wish for. Though with many 
things in NL we have seen, even if there is money, nobody claims it...


> If, on the other hand, there is nobody who wants to do the hard work of 
> finding sponsors, then why should OSMF - they're only people like you and me. 
> Ask them to do things that nobody in the project wants to do himself and you 
> are inevitably asking to set up an organisation that uses money to pay people 
> to do the jobs that nobody in the project wants to do.

I disagree; it was already claimed that the OSMF members became more equal 
than other active contributors because they `voted'. So like you and me, 
maybe in our minds, in their minds it probably like Animal Farm.

> Certainly a valid way of advancing the project, but in my eyes it carries the 
> danger of, little by little, taking the whole project out of the hands of 
> hobbyists. Before too long, we'll be a membership organisation where central 
> command runs the GPS vans and individual participation is reduced to paying a 
> membership fee and receiving a bi-monthly full-colour membership magazine.

Will we call the magazine `Steve'?


Stefan

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Stefan de Konink wrote:
> The goals of the OSMF are to facilitate the project. So it could/should 
> be a goal to look out for worldwide opportunities, not limited to 
> getting sponsors for a single event.

Maybe, but I am happy with OSMF keeping a low profile. Before the last 
election to the OSMF board, lofty plans were circulated how to make OSMF 
into a strong organisation with 10.000 members and hire full-time 
personnel for fundraising and management. I opposed these ideas because 
I feel that such an organisation would quickly turn into a self-feeding 
behemoth that is more at home in the corporate world than in OSM.

If someone wants to approach sponsors on a local or national level, 
that's no problem and I am sure that OSMF will give them the support 
they need. (We run a similar setup here in Germany where FOSSGIS e.V. 
will help out anyone who needs a "legal contact" or someone to sign a 
contract - but they don't, on their own, go searching for sponsors.)

If, on the other hand, there is nobody who wants to do the hard work of 
finding sponsors, then why should OSMF - they're only people like you 
and me. Ask them to do things that nobody in the project wants to do 
himself and you are inevitably asking to set up an organisation that 
uses money to pay people to do the jobs that nobody in the project wants 
to do.

Certainly a valid way of advancing the project, but in my eyes it 
carries the danger of, little by little, taking the whole project out of 
the hands of hobbyists. Before too long, we'll be a membership 
organisation where central command runs the GPS vans and individual 
participation is reduced to paying a membership fee and receiving a 
bi-monthly full-colour membership magazine.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Stefan de Konink]

The goals of the OSMF are to facilitate the project. So it could/ 
should be a goal to look out for worldwide opportunities, not limited  
to getting sponsors for a single event.

Stefan

Op 29 mrt 2010 om 10:16 heeft Frederik Ramm  het  
volgende geschreven:\

> Hi,
>
> Stefan de Konink wrote:
>> The only pattern I see is that the OSMF is not putting the same  
>> efforts in fundsraising in compare to the decentralized projects.  
>> At least are not successfull at it.
>> Too busy with licenses maybe? (yes that was a flame)
>
> To be honest, I think it is very, very shortsighted of some of these  
> projects to collect data without spending a thought on the licensing  
> situation.
>
> Most of them are probably liable to being shut down by one of their  
> base map providers, and there's little "open" about them if you look  
> closely. "GreenMap" is certainly more centralized than OSM, with  
> participants having to be granted a license to use their wondrous  
> editing software. I'm quite happy that OSMF doesn't have ambitions  
> like that, and I would hope it stays that way.
>
> The guy from the local GreenMap initiative in Berlin told me that  
> they are only a handful of determined people yet they manage to  
> attract EU funding - by applying for it two years before you need it  
> and write a 20 page description of what you need the money for.
>
> I'm sure the group of OSM activists in Berlin could easily achieve  
> the same - it's just that they have other priorities.
>
> This has nothing to do with OSMF.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Stefan de Konink wrote:
> The only pattern I see is that the OSMF is not putting the same efforts 
> in fundsraising in compare to the decentralized projects. At least are 
> not successfull at it.
> 
> Too busy with licenses maybe? (yes that was a flame)

To be honest, I think it is very, very shortsighted of some of these 
projects to collect data without spending a thought on the licensing 
situation.

Most of them are probably liable to being shut down by one of their base 
map providers, and there's little "open" about them if you look closely. 
"GreenMap" is certainly more centralized than OSM, with participants 
having to be granted a license to use their wondrous editing software. 
I'm quite happy that OSMF doesn't have ambitions like that, and I would 
hope it stays that way.

The guy from the local GreenMap initiative in Berlin told me that they 
are only a handful of determined people yet they manage to attract EU 
funding - by applying for it two years before you need it and write a 20 
page description of what you need the money for.

I'm sure the group of OSM activists in Berlin could easily achieve the 
same - it's just that they have other priorities.

This has nothing to do with OSMF.

Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Stefan de Konink]

The only pattern I see is that the OSMF is not putting the same  
efforts in fundsraising in compare to the decentralized projects. At  
least are not successfull at it.

Too busy with licenses maybe? (yes that was a flame)

Stefan

Op 29 mrt 2010 om 09:04 heeft Frederik Ramm  het  
volgende geschreven:\

> Hi,
>
> Arlindo Pereira wrote:
>> Yeah, I've tried to "sell" OSM for them, but they didn't care,  
>> they've
>> written a project as a NGO, got a lot of money, and hired a  
>> programmer
>> to do a poor Google Maps mashup. Claudomiro even flew from São Pau 
>> lo to
>> Rio de Janeiro to have a meeting with them, but they didn't cared  
>> much.
>> Maybe we'll have more luck as a foundation chapter, I don't know.
>
> There seems to be a pattern there. I recently met someone who was  
> active
> with greenmap.org which seems to be hardly more than a project
> collecting POIs based on Google maps ("OpenGreenMap"). They seem to
> regularly attract government funding for project meetings or printed
> maps of local areas. I saw one such map - it was a Google aerial image
> with a few POIs marked on top.
>
> In the OpenStreetMap world view, their contribution to Open Data is  
> zero
> because Google owns their derived work; yet the European Union and  
> other
> sponsors seem not to care much.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El 29/03/2010 1:45, Martin Koppenhoefer escribió:
> Have you heard about youmap?
> http://www.youmap.eu/
>
> I wrote to them proposing OSM instead of G-maps.

I had a meeting with the spanish branch of youmap... a year ago or so.

My feeling is that they're not really interested in switching the 
basemaps, making their own basemaps, or contributing to OSM. Like the 
brazilian wikipama, they've got their funding and their project idea, 
and not a lot of incentives to change.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Arlindo Pereira wrote:
> Yeah, I've tried to "sell" OSM for them, but they didn't care, they've 
> written a project as a NGO, got a lot of money, and hired a programmer 
> to do a poor Google Maps mashup. Claudomiro even flew from São Paulo to 
> Rio de Janeiro to have a meeting with them, but they didn't cared much. 
> Maybe we'll have more luck as a foundation chapter, I don't know.

There seems to be a pattern there. I recently met someone who was active 
with greenmap.org which seems to be hardly more than a project 
collecting POIs based on Google maps ("OpenGreenMap"). They seem to 
regularly attract government funding for project meetings or printed 
maps of local areas. I saw one such map - it was a Google aerial image 
with a few POIs marked on top.

In the OpenStreetMap world view, their contribution to Open Data is zero 
because Google owns their derived work; yet the European Union and other 
sponsors seem not to care much.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[John Smith]

On 29 March 2010 14:45, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason  wrote:
> This is the first link on their front page:
> http://www.youmap.eu/?page=PrjHome&prj=91&mid=432

Sorry, I thought you were talking about wikimapa.org.br :)

The problem with this sort of content at present is the ideology of
those making editors where they display everything all the time.

Another solution is something like OSM Bugs which has a separate
database, but the data can still be pulled into OSM editors.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 03:33, John Smith  wrote:
> I had a quick glance and couldn't figure out their site, it wasn't
> dragable so I lost interest pretty quickly, but can you give an
> example?

This is the first link on their front page:
http://www.youmap.eu/?page=PrjHome&prj=91&mid=432

Page through the "Public projects" sidebar for more examples.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[John Smith]

On 29 March 2010 13:14, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason  wrote:
> Personally I don't care what data you put in the DB as long as you're
> maintaining it and it doesn't disrupt anything else unreasonably.

And as long as it's verifiable to others...

> 1. a cursory glance at their data reveals that they're mapping things
> that aren't "on the ground".

I had a quick glance and couldn't figure out their site, it wasn't
dragable so I lost interest pretty quickly, but can you give an
example?

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 23:45, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> by the way: there is also similar (?) projects going on in Europe.
> Have you heard about youmap?
> http://www.youmap.eu/
>
> I wrote to them proposing OSM instead of G-maps.

This map is mapping exactly the sort of thing that would spawn a
100-reply thread on osm-talk from the old guard saying we shouldn't be
mapping things like that[1].

Either we're going to have to be more open to projects like that or
accept that they won't use OSM or contribute to it.

Personally I don't care what data you put in the DB as long as you're
maintaining it and it doesn't disrupt anything else unreasonably.

1. a cursory glance at their data reveals that they're mapping things
that aren't "on the ground".

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2010/3/29 Arlindo Pereira :
> Yeah, I've tried to "sell" OSM for them, but they didn't care, they've
> written a project as a NGO, ...


by the way: there is also similar (?) projects going on in Europe.
Have you heard about youmap?
http://www.youmap.eu/

I wrote to them proposing OSM instead of G-maps.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?

[Arlindo Pereira]

Yeah, I've tried to "sell" OSM for them, but they didn't care, they've
written a project as a NGO, got a lot of money, and hired a programmer to do
a poor Google Maps mashup. Claudomiro even flew from São Paulo to Rio de
Janeiro to have a meeting with them, but they didn't cared much. Maybe we'll
have more luck as a foundation chapter, I don't know.

They, however, give me the permission to copy the POIs they've managed to
get with N95 cellphones (the tracks are useless IMHO), that's how I came up
with this Cidade de Deus (City of God) map: http://osm.org/go/OVcZ0uwG

Cheers

2010/3/28 Claudomiro Nascimento Junior 

> Me and Arlindo had talks with then last year to bring then to OSM and to
> help then build "Real" maps - for now, then have only collected POIs that
> appear without any context on Google Maps. But it seems that they where not
> really interested on this cooperation.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 AM, Aun Johnsen wrote:
>
>> It seems like there are many similar initiatives in Brazil. For some
>> reason the words of OSM havn't been spread enough, and many
>> similar-but-not-the-same projects have popped up.
>>
>> Often when entering contact with such "competing" projects, they
>> either havn't heard about OSM, or thought OSM as "just another
>> initiative" when starting. Many of these projects have also only a
>> small community, or focus only on a relatively small geographical
>> area.
>>
>> The Brazilian community on OSM is not very large, and we might need
>> some more help on how to spread the word in order to merge with some
>> of these projects, many of them have compatible terms with OSM, so a
>> complete merge of databases should be just a matter of getting the
>> content in the right formats.
>>
>> -A[]
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Christian Rogel
>>  wrote:
>> > Some information here :
>> >
>> > http://gislounge.com/mapping-via-cell-phone-in-brazil/
>> >
>> > Christian
>> >
>> >
>> > Stefan de Konink a e'crit :
>> >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> >> Hash: SHA512
>> >>
>> >> http://wikimapa.org.br/
>> >>
>> >> Just on CNN, could someone tell something about it?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Stefan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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