Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:44:38 +0100 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/14 ed...@billiau.net: I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They they do have legal significance (the original nautical borders/territorial waters, usually 12 nautic miles, sometimes more as stabilized in international treaties) 1) are the sources of the lines marked? I agree that if you imported them from a reliable source and you are sure you did all the transformations correctly, you should mark the source in the changeset comment, so the information is stored in the db. 2) are the positions of the lines rated as to certainty? 3) how would a mapper reviewing them decide where to work next? IMHO he'd better not touch them unless he is sure. It's the same as with every border: hard to see on the ground, but useful to have in the db 4) should they be rendered in mapnik? IMHO yes, but that's up to the style sheet maintainer 5) should they be in a file formatted for garmin users? this can be decided by who creates the garmin map 6) how do we communicate the accuracy to garmin users? like we do it with all other stuff. Of course you shouldn't rely on them when their exact position is mission critical. Cheers, Martin I know you are the man with the answer to every question, but you have missed one ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
2011/2/15 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: 2) are the positions of the lines rated as to certainty? I know you are the man with the answer to every question, but you have missed one yes, I was not sure if I understood that one right. Is the question if there can be certainty about the correctness of these lines, or is it whether the certainty is marked on the lines? Case 1 could be regarded as a pointless question if asked by someone who is a long time member of Openstreetmap. Of course you can be certain of nothing and everybody can modify everything. You can also not be certain that the original data was transformed and imported correctly. Case 2 would require a lot of research (basically for all of those lines plus all modifications), which I have not done. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:05:15 +0100 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/15 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: 2) are the positions of the lines rated as to certainty? I know you are the man with the answer to every question, but you have missed one yes, I was not sure if I understood that one right. Is the question if there can be certainty about the correctness of these lines, or is it whether the certainty is marked on the lines? Case 1 could be regarded as a pointless question if asked by someone who is a long time member of Openstreetmap. Of course you can be certain of nothing and everybody can modify everything. You can also not be certain that the original data was transformed and imported correctly. that was not my question that question sparked me into considering a fuller set of questions Case 2 would require a lot of research (basically for all of those lines plus all modifications), which I have not done. cheers, Martin The questions are not absolute - they address areas which OSM may not have yet considered, like considering the degree of certainty of information. You mentioned that the Italian nautical border was obtained from statute, which sounds definitive, and then noted that the datum may have needed correcting, because if in statute before 1984 WGS84 would not have existed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
2011/2/15 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: You mentioned that the Italian nautical border was obtained from statute, which sounds definitive, and then noted that the datum may have needed correcting, because if in statute before 1984 WGS84 would not have existed. No, I mentioned that we were about to create the baseline from this statute, and whilst still researching which was the system the coordinates, someone else imported the boundaries from a different official site (European Environment Agency, an agency of the European Union): http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/data/maritime-boundaries and AFAIK nobody then checked if those were corresponding to the official Italian version (I guess everyone was asuming they were correct, as they were official). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
the source is: EUROSION was a project commissioned by the General Directorate Environment of the European Commission 2002-2004. The main source of data comes out of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), where nations define and update their sovereign claims to the ocean. Information provided by UNCLOS has been geocoded by EUROSION. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
Dave, On 02/14/11 07:52, David Murn wrote: Im sure I remember reading a linked news story posted on this mailing list about a soldier crossing into enemy country because of incorrect mapping on his GPS. In that case, should we perhaps deviate from our usual mode of operation (anyone can add anything even if it's only half-right and others may fix it later) to one where we only explicitly add territorial water boundaries where we know (or at least strongly believe) them to be where we add them - rather than adding an auto-generated 12nm line around any piece of coastline and leave it to the soldiers of this world to find out the details ;)? What happens if the international waters stretch further than 12nm in some areas? The generally accepted rule is that 12nm is the edge of territorial waters, but by treaty/agreement this can be changed. Maybe then we should only add this data where it has been changed by treaty/agreement? Much as most people don't bother adding maxspeed tags to every inner-city road, assuming that it is enough to put them where the speed limit deviates from the norm? A ships captain might look at a neatly laid out park and say 'why bother putting each tree, thats just showing off that you can make pretty patterns', in the same way that a non boating person might fail to see the value in territorial water boundaries. My assumption - and I'm not a boating person so I may be wrong - is that if you're out on a boat with any working kind of navigation, you will know where the coastline is, and therefore you will automatically know where the 12nm boundary is - so having an explicit line would really only make sense where it deviates. I doubt that whoever put the current auto-generated boundaries in has actually checked whether these are overridden by any treaties. (But I've emailed Roland who is responsible for at least some of them and alerted him to this discussion.) I have the suspicion that these lines in OSM mean this is a buffer of 12nm around the coast which may or may not a territorial water boundary, rather than this is a territorial water boundary. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
Well there is at least one place where other information has been taken into account: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=5lon=-9.46zoom=6layers=M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On Mon, 2011-02-14 at 09:23 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: My assumption - and I'm not a boating person so I may be wrong - is that if you're out on a boat with any working kind of navigation, you will know where the coastline is, and therefore you will automatically know where the 12nm boundary is - so having an explicit line would really only make sense where it deviates. While I dont go boating a full 12nm from shore, I am a keen boater and my GPS navigation consists of a hacked navman using OSM maps, so while I cant say either way in this particular case, I can say in my boating I can say that my primary navigation method is with GPS and OSM data, only falling back to paper map and compass as a backup. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They Just that it's clear that not all are automatically generated: at least the Finnish border at the sea between Finland and Sweden (and Estonia) was translated (another coordinate system) from a Finnish law containing the corner points - the zones of different countries even meet at three sections, and thus affect the distance from the shore. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They Just that it's clear that not all are automatically generated: at least the Finnish border at the sea between Finland and Sweden (and Estonia) was translated (another coordinate system) from a Finnish law containing the corner points - the zones of different countries even meet at three sections, and thus affect the distance from the shore. the questions become 1) are the sources of the lines marked? 2) are the positions of the lines rated as to certainty? 3) how would a mapper reviewing them decide where to work next? 4) should they be rendered in mapnik? 5) should they be in a file formatted for garmin users? 6) how do we communicate the accuracy to garmin users? i think that they are valuable pieces of information which need to be very accurate to be useful. Currently rendered in purple on mapnik they are more noticeable than the coastline, which may suit some purposes, but looks quite odd on island states. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
Hi, On 14 February 2011 03:22, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They certainly give the impression of high precision, hugging every protruding bit of coastline in a safe distance. For example, if I am inside this triangle between Scotland and Ireland, will my legal status (concerning, say, fishing quotas, or whom I can marry on board of my vessel, or whatever funny things influcenced by international borders) be really any different from the status I had if I moved my vessel 2 miles in either direction? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.065lon=-5.567zoom=10layers=M Or are we, by using these auto-generated (and perhaps not human-reviewed?) borders, suggesting a precision that isn't there? Would the UK coastguard have a good laugh when I claim to be in international waters at that location? My second question is, assuming that indeed there is significance to the 12 nm boundary - should such auto-generated data be in OSM at all? If you're out on the sea, should whatever navigational aid you carry not compute by itself how far you are from the coast, rather than telling you whether you're to the left or to the right of a previously computed 12nm line? And my third question is, assuming that there are really good reasons for having these lines in OSM - who takes care of updating them once the coastline is modified by a mapper? I think it is a rather unique situation to have that kind of data-derived-from-other-OSM-data in OSM itself, and thus this has many of the same problems that an import would have (i.e. the source data has changed, what now). I'm not saying we should delete them; but whenever I see them on the map I tend to shrug and say well, seems like someone was trying out his PostGIS skillz, and somehow I have the suspicion that the 12nm line as depicted on our maps may be little more than that's what computer geeks do if you tell them the border is 12 miles out I don't know how accurate these borders are, but I would prefer that they stay because closed polygon borders are useful for many types of spatial tasks. If you remove those pieces of border, where are you going to draw the border and why. You might say tools should generate the border in their pre-processing but unfortunately the 12 nm rules is not universal. It would also rise the entry level effort for tool authors (for example in a render, should the implementation be part of the code or part of the stylesheet? Placement of borders is not exactly a style issue) I believe borders are no exception in OSM. All data is best-effort, no warranties. They are improved when better data becomes available and there are mappers with bandwidth to do the update. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
2011/2/14 ed...@billiau.net: I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They they do have legal significance (the original nautical borders/territorial waters, usually 12 nautic miles, sometimes more as stabilized in international treaties) 1) are the sources of the lines marked? I agree that if you imported them from a reliable source and you are sure you did all the transformations correctly, you should mark the source in the changeset comment, so the information is stored in the db. 2) are the positions of the lines rated as to certainty? 3) how would a mapper reviewing them decide where to work next? IMHO he'd better not touch them unless he is sure. It's the same as with every border: hard to see on the ground, but useful to have in the db 4) should they be rendered in mapnik? IMHO yes, but that's up to the style sheet maintainer 5) should they be in a file formatted for garmin users? this can be decided by who creates the garmin map 6) how do we communicate the accuracy to garmin users? like we do it with all other stuff. Of course you shouldn't rely on them when their exact position is mission critical. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
2011/2/14 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Maybe then we should only add this data where it has been changed by treaty/agreement? Much as most people don't bother adding maxspeed tags to every inner-city road, assuming that it is enough to put them where the speed limit deviates from the norm? My assumption - and I'm not a boating person so I may be wrong - is that if you're out on a boat with any working kind of navigation, you will know where the coastline is, and therefore you will automatically know where the 12nm boundary is - so having an explicit line would really only make sense where it deviates. We have been discussing these issues in Italy and someone found the treaty which contained a long list of points which are used to draw the baseline, the 12miles offset for the international waters is calculated from this (in international treaties established) baseline, not from the actual coastline, so it doesn't matter how often we change our coastline: it doesn't change the 12nm-water-border. We were still discussing which reference system might have been used in the treaty (if I recall right the treaty was before WGS84 was invented) when user:Damouns imported a lot of these borders e.g. here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/46428057/history with these tags: admin_level = 2 border_type = territorial boundary = administrative maritime = yes name = Territorial waters of Italy ref = 118 source = EUROSION source_ref = http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/data/maritime-boundaries so we stopped caring and started hoping (AFAIK, maybe someone checked it) that this imported border was correct. At least it claimed to be based on official data, which was enough for all of us ;-) I doubt that whoever put the current auto-generated boundaries in has actually checked whether these are overridden by any treaties. Don't know for the German, Dutch or British borders, which have already been sitting there for a while when our borders were imported, but at least those later imported ones seem to be based on official data. As stated above: when calculating them you should refer to the baseline which is defined in treaties, using the actual coastline would generally result in inaccurate data, even if it has much more nodes ;-). Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
I agree that there is also some rubbish, e.g. this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/50899241 nobody can rightfully claim its territory (=admin_level 2) to be extended by 200 nautic miles, and also the linked wikipedia article doesn't imply this. Also it doesn't seem that the baseline was used to calculate this border. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
2011/2/14 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I agree that there is also some rubbish, e.g. this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/50899241 nobody can rightfully claim its territory (=admin_level 2) to be extended by 200 nautic miles, and also the linked wikipedia article doesn't imply this. Also it doesn't seem that the baseline was used to calculate this border. Well, in this case also the CIA factbook confirms the Liberian Claim for the 200 nautic miles: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2106.html Their claim seems to be contradicting the UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) treaty though (cited from the CIA): territorial sea - the sovereignty of a coastal state extends beyond its land territory and internal waters to an adjacent belt of sea, described as the territorial sea in the UNCLOS (Part II); this sovereignty extends to the air space over the territorial sea as well as its underlying seabed and subsoil; every state has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles; the normal baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea is the mean low-water line along the coast as marked on large-scale charts officially recognized by the coastal state; the UNCLOS describes specific rules for archipelagic states. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
Im sure I remember reading a linked news story posted on this mailing list about a soldier crossing into enemy country because of incorrect mapping on his GPS. this one? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3761058.ece or this one? http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/11/google-maps-error-blamed-for-nicaraguan-invasion/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
Hi, I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? They certainly give the impression of high precision, hugging every protruding bit of coastline in a safe distance. For example, if I am inside this triangle between Scotland and Ireland, will my legal status (concerning, say, fishing quotas, or whom I can marry on board of my vessel, or whatever funny things influcenced by international borders) be really any different from the status I had if I moved my vessel 2 miles in either direction? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.065lon=-5.567zoom=10layers=M Or are we, by using these auto-generated (and perhaps not human-reviewed?) borders, suggesting a precision that isn't there? Would the UK coastguard have a good laugh when I claim to be in international waters at that location? My second question is, assuming that indeed there is significance to the 12 nm boundary - should such auto-generated data be in OSM at all? If you're out on the sea, should whatever navigational aid you carry not compute by itself how far you are from the coast, rather than telling you whether you're to the left or to the right of a previously computed 12nm line? And my third question is, assuming that there are really good reasons for having these lines in OSM - who takes care of updating them once the coastline is modified by a mapper? I think it is a rather unique situation to have that kind of data-derived-from-other-OSM-data in OSM itself, and thus this has many of the same problems that an import would have (i.e. the source data has changed, what now). I'm not saying we should delete them; but whenever I see them on the map I tend to shrug and say well, seems like someone was trying out his PostGIS skillz, and somehow I have the suspicion that the 12nm line as depicted on our maps may be little more than that's what computer geeks do if you tell them the border is 12 miles out I'd like to hear from people who tell me that yes, these borders are really useful to have ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I'm not saying we should delete them; but whenever I see them on the map I tend to shrug and say well, seems like someone was trying out his PostGIS skillz, and somehow I have the suspicion that the 12nm line as depicted on our maps may be little more than that's what computer geeks do if you tell them the border is 12 miles out Heh, the same thought has occurred to me. I would add a fourth question: even assuming that we are all agreed that this is valuable, properly computed data - do we want it shown in the main Mapnik view? Is the international waters designation important enough to show at that level? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On Mon, 2011-02-14 at 03:22 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: I've been thinking about the 12nm territorial borders on sea that we have in many places, notably in Europe. Many of them seem to have been auto-generated by simply placing a buffer around the coastline. My first question is, do they really have legal significance? For example, if I am inside this triangle between Scotland and Ireland, will my legal status (concerning, say, fishing quotas, or whom I can marry on board of my vessel, or whatever funny things influcenced by international borders) be really any different from the status I had if I moved my vessel 2 miles in either direction? Try approaching by sea to within 13 miles of China, Iran or Pakistan, then travel another 2 miles across the territorial border and see if the locals think it makes a difference. Im sure I remember reading a linked news story posted on this mailing list about a soldier crossing into enemy country because of incorrect mapping on his GPS. Would the UK coastguard have a good laugh when I claim to be in international waters at that location? If youre more than 12 miles from the coast (which is what is mapped) then youre in international waters, why would they laugh at that fact? My second question is, assuming that indeed there is significance to the 12 nm boundary - should such auto-generated data be in OSM at all? If you're out on the sea, should whatever navigational aid you carry not compute by itself how far you are from the coast, rather than telling you whether you're to the left or to the right of a previously computed 12nm line? What happens if the international waters stretch further than 12nm in some areas? The generally accepted rule is that 12nm is the edge of territorial waters, but by treaty/agreement this can be changed. I'm not saying we should delete them; but whenever I see them on the map I tend to shrug and say well, seems like someone was trying out his PostGIS skillz A ships captain might look at a neatly laid out park and say 'why bother putting each tree, thats just showing off that you can make pretty patterns', in the same way that a non boating person might fail to see the value in territorial water boundaries. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 2011-02-14 03:22, Frederik Ramm skrev: For example, if I am inside this triangle between Scotland and Ireland, will my legal status (concerning, say, fishing quotas, or whom I can marry on board of my vessel, or whatever funny things influcenced by international borders) be really any different from the status I had if I moved my vessel 2 miles in either direction? Yes, I'm not sure abo9ut teh Uk or Irish rules in details but in and around sweden if for example you are a small vessel, some of the international shipping rules are not applied for you ship. Such as the need to carry day signals. Outside the water limits these rules don't applie any more and you can be fined. The data in the swedish borders comes form a EU database, not looked deeper into it. http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/data/maritime-boundaries Or are we, by using these auto-generated (and perhaps not human-reviewed?) borders, suggesting a precision that isn't there? Would the UK coastguard have a good laugh when I claim to be in international waters at that location? Isn't the legal case same for everything? Hey officer my gps said the was 90 here. Claming anything based on the map i think is wrong. And my third question is, assuming that there are really good reasons for having these lines in OSM - who takes care of updating them once the coastline is modified by a mapper? I think it is a rather unique situation to have that kind of data-derived-from-other-OSM-data in OSM itself, and thus this has many of the same problems that an import would have (i.e. the source data has changed, what now). Who take resopsibilti to update any data, does these lines differ really. The real line i then as well is not just 12nm outside the coast but some kind of simplifactions of that 12 nm, also there are issues when the line overlaps between two contries. I'd like to hear from people who tell me that yes, these borders are really useful to have ;) I personally would love OSM to have much more usefull data even at sea. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1Y0fEACgkQtbR3SXmySrferACeJXyo3VP39fjkSQOfY+7lWZGB TXEAnjdSBHqIHmTfeuZ1fkko6ISvcu7F =KLmX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 12nm territorial borders - useful or rubbish?
On 14 February 2011 16:52, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: Would the UK coastguard have a good laugh when I claim to be in international waters at that location? If youre more than 12 miles from the coast (which is what is mapped) then youre in international waters, why would they laugh at that fact? Actually, that's one of the areas where it's often changed. If you are in a bay, and the mouth of the bay closes enough that you can't get in without going through territorial waters, it doesn't matter how big the bay gets afterwards, all the waters inside it a belong to that country also. There's an example here, and it looks like it is displayed correctly, which makes me think this part of the boundary is not auto-generated. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.52lon=-65.52zoom=8layers=M The question would be if that rule applied in that little triangle or not - it's not a bay, but it is impossible to get to without going through territorial waters, so I'm not sure. There's a number of other places were the border has obviously been corrected - not auto-generated. Are we sure any of it was? Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
