Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Vincent, could you create a proposal for that? > I suggested somewhere that we could enter the defintion of default > values, maxsped and other stuff in the relation boundary where they > would apply, like the timezone. > > Usualy those values should be entered in the country relation boundary. > But for some values it could be a lower level : definition of holidays... > > We can, if necessary, put a "def" prefix or create a special relation > type "definition" for including those definitions (easier to manage). > E.g (for France). > def:highway:motorway:maxspeed=130 > def:highway:motorway:maxspeed:rain=110 > def:highway:motorway:access:bicycle=no > def:highway:motorway:access:foot=no > def:highway:motorway:oneway=yes > def:urban=50 > def:rural=90 > def:highway:residential:maxspeed=urban > ... > > By this way, the values are : > - easy to update > - inside the osm data in .osm format > - available "just in time" for the engines, routing systems... and easy > to get by the API for map builders (like Garmin...). An engine that > would have "hardcoded values" woud be considered as obsolete. > - easy to use : the default value is for an area inside boundaries and > the admin_level of the boundaries says the priority of the value to > apply (if redefined for a smaller area) > -- > FrViPofm -- Best regards, Dmitry V. Granovsky ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 27 May 2010 12:57, Steve Bennett wrote: > I like this idea. Is it easy to determine, programmatically, whether > an object is geographically within a relation boundary? PostGIS makes this fairly easy to do, which is why is_in was made irrelevant, you can use ST_Within() and similar functions. http://postgis.refractions.net/documentation/manual-1.5/ST_Within.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Vincent Pottier wrote: > I suggested somewhere that we could enter the defintion of default > values, maxsped and other stuff in the relation boundary where they > would apply, like the timezone. > > Usualy those values should be entered in the country relation boundary. > But for some values it could be a lower level : definition of holidays... > > We can, if necessary, put a "def" prefix or create a special relation > type "definition" for including those definitions (easier to manage). > E.g (for France). > def:highway:motorway:maxspeed=130 > def:highway:motorway:maxspeed:rain=110 > def:highway:motorway:access:bicycle=no > def:highway:motorway:access:foot=no > def:highway:motorway:oneway=yes > def:urban=50 > def:rural=90 > def:highway:residential:maxspeed=urban I like this idea. Is it easy to determine, programmatically, whether an object is geographically within a relation boundary? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Tuesday 25 May 2010 10:41:24 Pieren wrote: > So. Can we conclude that tagging all maxspeeds is good for countries where > there is no default values and bad for countries where defaults exist and > attaching the same tag in millions ways would be waste of human time > because it could be prepocessed by the applications ? Yes -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Alex S. wrote: > > In Washington, default maxspeed by way type varies from town to town. > > > So. Can we conclude that tagging all maxspeeds is good for countries where there is no default values and bad for countries where defaults exist and attaching the same tag in millions ways would be waste of human time because it could be prepocessed by the applications ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Richard Welty wrote: > On 5/24/10 12:52 AM, Steve Bennett wrote: >> On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Richard Welty >> wrote: >> >>> yes. there's little hope for useful defaults, the defaults vary too much >>> from place to place. >>> >> From country to country perhaps, and maybe state to state - but not >> within states. >> > in actuality, i think it varies quite a lot, but so far values have only > been entered on the OSM_tags_for_routing page for NY, Oregon, and > Wisconsin, so it's hard to say definitively. In Washington, default maxspeed by way type varies from town to town. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 23/05/10 18:33, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Richard Welty wrote: >> which is a perfectly good theory, and very fussy in practice. i >> am unfamiliar with any jurisdiction which enforces speed >> limits to fractions of km/h or mph. > > There are signs on the UK canals which inform the boater that the speed > limit is 6.43kph. I kid you not. Friend of mine (in UK) lives near a private road with a "4 5/7" mph speed limit. Yes that's 4 and 5 sevenths mph, and no, that's not something sensible in kmph either. Alas I don't have a pic. Rory 0x5373FB61.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 24 May 2010 11:33, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > My personal favourite would be to separate the concept of a country from > its geographic (and some other) properties. > > Currently people will create a relation named "France" which has all the > border lines, or border sub-relations, as members, and tags like > name:de=Frankreich and all that. > > But I'm tempted to throw in another level: Have one relation that > represents the country of France. Here you can enter all the names and > link to the Wikipedia article for France and so on. Something that > represents the city of Paris - whether that's a simple node or maybe a > relation too - cold be a member of the France relation with the role > "capital". > > Then have another relation that models the borders of France, and make > this a member of the France relation (role="borders" or so). > > Your relation, which has lots of routing/navigation parameters for > France, could also be a member of that same France relation > (role="highway_code" or something). > > And so on. Relations galore! I know some people across the channel will > grumble but they'll get used to relations some time too. > +1 I think it is the way it should be. Geographical information should be separated from data whenever possible. I think Poland and Spain relations are interesting with the way they create a hierarchy of subarea but mixing information at the same level which is plainly wrong according to me. Separating the two layers would have avoid some problems. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 5/24/10 12:52 AM, Steve Bennett wrote: > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Richard Welty wrote: > >> yes. there's little hope for useful defaults, the defaults vary too much >> from place to place. >> > > From country to country perhaps, and maybe state to state - but not > within states. > quite, but in the US, we're talking about 50 states. someone has written in the wiki, quite optimistically: "As far as I know, most other states vary primarily in motorway speeds. 70 and 75 mph are common. " in actuality, i think it varies quite a lot, but so far values have only been entered on the OSM_tags_for_routing page for NY, Oregon, and Wisconsin, so it's hard to say definitively. richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Hi, Vincent Pottier wrote: > I know it is a risk of infinite loop for bad tools but > - the first version of the relation "definition" had no member, that is > not very convienient > - for tools keeping a list of definition, it is a way to remember to > witch area they apply > - maybe it is a way to build a "standard" def that several areas could > subscribe (for example holidays period zones of French educational > Academies that would apply to several departments) My personal favourite would be to separate the concept of a country from its geographic (and some other) properties. Currently people will create a relation named "France" which has all the border lines, or border sub-relations, as members, and tags like name:de=Frankreich and all that. But I'm tempted to throw in another level: Have one relation that represents the country of France. Here you can enter all the names and link to the Wikipedia article for France and so on. Something that represents the city of Paris - whether that's a simple node or maybe a relation too - cold be a member of the France relation with the role "capital". Then have another relation that models the borders of France, and make this a member of the France relation (role="borders" or so). Your relation, which has lots of routing/navigation parameters for France, could also be a member of that same France relation (role="highway_code" or something). And so on. Relations galore! I know some people across the channel will grumble but they'll get used to relations some time too. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Le 24/05/2010 11:20, Frederik Ramm a écrit : > Hi, > > Vincent Pottier wrote: >> I have started to implement it as a test : >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/11980 (relation France) >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/934933 (relation >> definition) > > I like the way in which you have created a circular reference by > making 934933 a "parent" and "child" of 11980 at the same time. It is > perfectly valid (twinned cities where each is the other's member would > be a similar situation) but many tool/editor writers handle this > poorly. Your relation will be a nice encouragement for them to fix > their code. > > Bye > Frederik > I know it is a risk of infinite loop for bad tools but - the first version of the relation "definition" had no member, that is not very convienient - for tools keeping a list of definition, it is a way to remember to witch area they apply - maybe it is a way to build a "standard" def that several areas could subscribe (for example holidays period zones of French educational Academies that would apply to several departments) -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Hi, Vincent Pottier wrote: > I have started to implement it as a test : > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/11980 (relation France) > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/934933 (relation definition) I like the way in which you have created a circular reference by making 934933 a "parent" and "child" of 11980 at the same time. It is perfectly valid (twinned cities where each is the other's member would be a similar situation) but many tool/editor writers handle this poorly. Your relation will be a nice encouragement for them to fix their code. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Le 24/05/2010 09:54, Vincent Pottier a écrit : > I suggested somewhere that we could enter the defintion of default > values, maxsped and other stuff in the relation boundary where they > would apply, like the timezone. > > Usualy those values should be entered in the country relation > boundary. But for some values it could be a lower level : definition > of holidays... > > We can, if necessary, put a "def" prefix or create a special relation > type "definition" for including those definitions (easier to manage). > E.g (for France). > ... I have started to implement it as a test : http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/11980 (relation France) http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/934933 (relation definition) the data are available at : http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/relation/934933 -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Richard Welty wrote: >> which is a perfectly good theory, and very fussy in practice. i >> am unfamiliar with any jurisdiction which enforces speed >> limits to fractions of km/h or mph. > > There are signs on the UK canals which inform the boater that the speed > limit is 6.43kph. I kid you not. Meanwhile, 30mph roads can't be used for 50kph driving tests http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/new+bike+test+may+create+quotpermanent+learnersquot/3656587 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Le 24/05/2010 06:52, Steve Bennett a écrit : > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Richard Welty wrote: > >> yes. there's little hope for useful defaults, the defaults vary too much >> from place to place. >> > > From country to country perhaps, and maybe state to state - but not > within states. In Victoria (Australia), guessing maxspeed=50 for > highway=residential will be right 95% of the time. It's certainly less > effort to build and implement a table of defaults than to tag every > single way, but the question is: whose effort? > > Still, I'm going to try and make sure I tag all roads of 60kph or > higher at least. Though it's surprisingly hard to remember them when I > just look at the map. > > To Australian mappers: is there a free government source of speed limits? > > Steve > I suggested somewhere that we could enter the defintion of default values, maxsped and other stuff in the relation boundary where they would apply, like the timezone. Usualy those values should be entered in the country relation boundary. But for some values it could be a lower level : definition of holidays... We can, if necessary, put a "def" prefix or create a special relation type "definition" for including those definitions (easier to manage). E.g (for France). def:highway:motorway:maxspeed=130 def:highway:motorway:maxspeed:rain=110 def:highway:motorway:access:bicycle=no def:highway:motorway:access:foot=no def:highway:motorway:oneway=yes def:urban=50 def:rural=90 def:highway:residential:maxspeed=urban ... By this way, the values are : - easy to update - inside the osm data in .osm format - available "just in time" for the engines, routing systems... and easy to get by the API for map builders (like Garmin...). An engine that would have "hardcoded values" woud be considered as obsolete. - easy to use : the default value is for an area inside boundaries and the admin_level of the boundaries says the priority of the value to apply (if redefined for a smaller area) -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Richard Welty wrote: > yes. there's little hope for useful defaults, the defaults vary too much > from place to place. >From country to country perhaps, and maybe state to state - but not within states. In Victoria (Australia), guessing maxspeed=50 for highway=residential will be right 95% of the time. It's certainly less effort to build and implement a table of defaults than to tag every single way, but the question is: whose effort? Still, I'm going to try and make sure I tag all roads of 60kph or higher at least. Though it's surprisingly hard to remember them when I just look at the map. To Australian mappers: is there a free government source of speed limits? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Richard Welty wrote: > which is a perfectly good theory, and very fussy in practice. i > am unfamiliar with any jurisdiction which enforces speed > limits to fractions of km/h or mph. There are signs on the UK canals which inform the boater that the speed limit is 6.43kph. I kid you not. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Navigation-Debug-Map-Style-Available-tp5083688p5091291.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 5/23/10 12:22 PM, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: > Patrick Kilian writes: >> > in looking at the maxspeed page, i see that in going from mph to >> > km/h, rounding is always down. can someone speak to why that choice >> > was made? >> > If you stick to_that_ value, you are legally save. If you go at the > limit calculated from round to the closest integer you might be going > (slightly) too fast. So basically it avoids the old "but my satnav told > me so"... > which is a perfectly good theory, and very fussy in practice. i am unfamiliar with any jurisdiction which enforces speed limits to fractions of km/h or mph. richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
At 2010-05-22 08:41, Mike N. wrote: > > as far as i know, we're supposed to be using KPH everywhere, even here > > in the US. > > According to the Wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maxspeed > >"If your country uses miles / the imperial system, tag the value and append >" mph"! " This seems more consistent with the "tag what you see" concept. Additionally, I've seen mappers use (a very) wrong conversion factor, as surprising as that seems. Even using 1.6 instead of 1.6093 results in 88 kph = 55 mph instead of 89 kph, which could create problems when searching. -- Alan Mintz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
> as far as i know, we're supposed to be using KPH everywhere, even here > in the US. According to the Wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maxspeed "If your country uses miles / the imperial system, tag the value and append " mph"! " ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
"Mike N." writes: >The estimated speed limits are probably a best guess average worldwide for > trunk. That's a motivation to enter the actual speed for best routing > choices. > > yes. there's little hope for useful defaults, the defaults vary too much from place to place. > I also noticed in the US that speeds entered in KPH (such as '72') are > shown as 72 on the map, while speeds in MPH (such as '60 mph') also show up > as '60' on this map. That can be a bit confusing. > > as far as i know, we're supposed to be using KPH everywhere, even here in the US. richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
I also noticed highway=footway is shown with assumed 5(mph?) limit. As some of these are less than a metre wide between houses, I'm not sure how the traffic cops are going to drive after running offenders. On 22 May 2010 12:00, Mike N. wrote: > > Not quite sure what to make of what I'm seeing - "trunk" roads with an > > estimated speed limit of 85kph (there's no such thing as a _5kph limit > > in Australia). Is this in scope for the comments you're seeking? > > The estimated speed limits are probably a best guess average worldwide > for > trunk. That's a motivation to enter the actual speed for best routing > choices. > > I also noticed in the US that speeds entered in KPH (such as '72') are > shown as 72 on the map, while speeds in MPH (such as '60 mph') also show up > as '60' on this map. That can be a bit confusing. > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
> Not quite sure what to make of what I'm seeing - "trunk" roads with an > estimated speed limit of 85kph (there's no such thing as a _5kph limit > in Australia). Is this in scope for the comments you're seeking? The estimated speed limits are probably a best guess average worldwide for trunk. That's a motivation to enter the actual speed for best routing choices. I also noticed in the US that speeds entered in KPH (such as '72') are shown as 72 on the map, while speeds in MPH (such as '60 mph') also show up as '60' on this map. That can be a bit confusing. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On 22 May 2010 14:32, Steve Bennett wrote: > For navigation, how about surfaces - people diligently record this > information but it's hardly ever used. Particularly surface=paved, > unpaved, dirt, cobblestone, etc... Access tags? Bus/tram/train route I'd love to see unpaved tagged as dash lines, similar to most maps in Australia, as for surface=paved this can be assumed 99% of the time, how many residential roads or motorways have you seen unpaved? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Nick Black wrote: > * Speed limits Not quite sure what to make of what I'm seeing - "trunk" roads with an estimated speed limit of 85kph (there's no such thing as a _5kph limit in Australia). Is this in scope for the comments you're seeking? > *... anything else? Cyclelanes. I assume the purpose of this map is to sure recorded information which is not rendered in mapnik, to elevate its visibility. So, cycleway=lane would fall into that category. For navigation, how about surfaces - people diligently record this information but it's hardly ever used. Particularly surface=paved, unpaved, dirt, cobblestone, etc... Access tags? Bus/tram/train route numbers? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
> * Lane numbers > * Speed limits > * Turn restrictions - no turns and one direction only > * One ways > * U-Turns > * Roundabouts Great tool! This is the first one I've seen with 'mph' Speed Limit summaries. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
That looks very useful! Any chance we could have a Nominatim driven search box so we can jump straight to a location rather than having to pan and zoom there? David On 21/05/2010 11:36, Nick Black wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Happy Friday. The navigation debug map style we've been working on at > CloudMade is now available for browsing, and use as a tile source: > > http://cartography.sandbox.cloudmade.com/navdebug/?lat=51.51379&lng=-0.106988&zoom=15 > > Features Shows: > > * Lane numbers > * Speed limits > * Turn restrictions - no turns and one direction only > * One ways > * U-Turns > * Roundabouts > > Grab a PDF legend from here: > http://vagafonkin.sandbox.cloudmade.com/navdebug/legend.pdf > > Details: > > * Updated once a day > * Tiles are rendered on the fly. The more you use, the more we cache :-) > > Future: > > * Add more nav features > * Integration into Mapzen > * Faster updates > *... anything else? > > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Navigation Debug Map Style Available
Hi Guys, Happy Friday. The navigation debug map style we've been working on at CloudMade is now available for browsing, and use as a tile source: http://cartography.sandbox.cloudmade.com/navdebug/?lat=51.51379&lng=-0.106988&zoom=15 Features Shows: * Lane numbers * Speed limits * Turn restrictions - no turns and one direction only * One ways * U-Turns * Roundabouts Grab a PDF legend from here: http://vagafonkin.sandbox.cloudmade.com/navdebug/legend.pdf Details: * Updated once a day * Tiles are rendered on the fly. The more you use, the more we cache :-) Future: * Add more nav features * Integration into Mapzen * Faster updates *... anything else? -- Nick Black n...@cloudmade.com twitter.com/nick_b ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
