Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread Nicolás Alvarez 

> El 4 mar 2016, a las 10:37, Janko Mihelić  escribió:
> 
> I think existing mappers are not the biggest problem. If mapping starts being 
> paid, there may be an influx of new mappers who do it only for the money.
> 
> They will, of course, map a lot because that's how you get more money. They 
> will introduce skewed mapping practices at best, and outright wrong mapping 
> at worst. For example, they may start mapping forests with natural=tree 
> because that way they get more money.
> 
> In my opinion this should be a very controlled practice which will guide 
> those mappers through a narrow path, and not give them the free will to get 
> paid for what ever they do.
> 

It seems they have collected about $50 worth of bitcoins from donations in 
January. February was *much* less. I'm not sure among how many mappers it was 
distributed (the website is a bit buggy).

Will we get a huge influx of mappers doing things wrong to get a cent or two at 
the end of the month?
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread Janko Mihelić 
I think existing mappers are not the biggest problem. If mapping starts
being paid, there may be an influx of new mappers who do it only for the
money.

They will, of course, map a lot because that's how you get more money. They
will introduce skewed mapping practices at best, and outright wrong mapping
at worst. For example, they may start mapping forests with natural=tree
because that way they get more money.

In my opinion this should be a very controlled practice which will guide
those mappers through a narrow path, and not give them the free will to get
paid for what ever they do.

Janko
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread moltonel 3x Combo 
On 03/03/2016, Richard  wrote:
>> Even without talking about nefarious schemes, even well-meaning users
>> will tend to change their mapping behavior because of this. In this
>> case it's about uploading more often, potentially making changes
>> harder to follow.
>
> imho it would be good if people would upload more often. Easier to revert
> if it is wrong, more likely the changeset will fit into a reasonable
> bounding box.

There's a happy middle. Some people make too many tiny changesets,
others make too few huge changesets. And nobody make the right amount
of correctly-sized changesets, because that's subjecctive :p

Analysing (perhaps even reverting) a swarm of small changesets is as
much a PITA as huge changesets. Avoid editing very distant points in
the same changeset. Avoid mixing very different tasks (say pure
armchair stuff and survey results) in the same changeset. Avoid doing
5 changesets in an hour for the same location/road/object. Rule of
thumb: if writing a reasonably-precise changeset comment is
complicated or if you used the same comment 20 times today, you should
review the size of your changesets.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread Lester Caine 
On 04/03/16 11:06, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> Paying mappers should have a very intricate web of defined jobs and
> reviewers. Ideally, OSM Tasking Manager should be used. "Map all forests
> and roads in this square, I review, and you get 0.1 bitcoins". Anything
> less strict is prone to misuse.

A mechanism that reduces entitlement for reverted activity is essential
and I don't think the OSMANDLive process even acknowledges that.

(and trim properly if you must top post please)

> On 03/03/16 11:17, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
> > mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
> > based on the number of changesets you upload.
> >
> > I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
> > Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
> > What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
> 
> http://osmand.net/osm_live#information seems to be the correct
> information? Personally I would associate 'live' in relation to a
> routing application to be live updates of traffic conditions, and I
> could understand the monetising of that data, but this does not seem to
> be addressing that particular problem at all?
> 
> As someone actively contributing currently, while an income from that
> would be welcome, I don't think this third party activity is helpful to
> OSM! In the first instance I have no intention of contributing to
> bitcoin since I think it's main reason for existence is to hid scammers
> and until that secrecy is removed ... I will not be signing up ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread Janko Mihelić 
Paying mappers should have a very intricate web of defined jobs and
reviewers. Ideally, OSM Tasking Manager should be used. "Map all forests
and roads in this square, I review, and you get 0.1 bitcoins". Anything
less strict is prone to misuse.

Janko

pet, 4. ožu 2016. u 10:36 Lester Caine  napisao je:

> On 03/03/16 11:17, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
> > mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
> > based on the number of changesets you upload.
> >
> > I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
> > Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
> > What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
>
> http://osmand.net/osm_live#information seems to be the correct
> information? Personally I would associate 'live' in relation to a
> routing application to be live updates of traffic conditions, and I
> could understand the monetising of that data, but this does not seem to
> be addressing that particular problem at all?
>
> As someone actively contributing currently, while an income from that
> would be welcome, I don't think this third party activity is helpful to
> OSM! In the first instance I have no intention of contributing to
> bitcoin since I think it's main reason for existence is to hid scammers
> and until that secrecy is removed ... I will not be signing up ...
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-04 Thread Lester Caine 
On 03/03/16 11:17, Marc Gemis wrote:
> If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
> mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
> based on the number of changesets you upload.
> 
> I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
> Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
> What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?

http://osmand.net/osm_live#information seems to be the correct
information? Personally I would associate 'live' in relation to a
routing application to be live updates of traffic conditions, and I
could understand the monetising of that data, but this does not seem to
be addressing that particular problem at all?

As someone actively contributing currently, while an income from that
would be welcome, I don't think this third party activity is helpful to
OSM! In the first instance I have no intention of contributing to
bitcoin since I think it's main reason for existence is to hid scammers
and until that secrecy is removed ... I will not be signing up ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Dave F 


On 03/03/2016 22:23, Richard wrote:


imho it would be good if people would upload more often. Easier to revert
if it is wrong, more likely the changeset will fit into a reasonable
bounding box.


So, you're volunteering to be the head reversion honcho? Great; I'll 
pass them on you, as I'm spending far to much of my OSM time sorting out 
other peoples cock-ups.


I failing to see how not having to revert can possibly be quicker than 
having to!


It's disappointing to see there's a few people who actively advocate the 
adding of data that is knowingly incorrect.


Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Richard 
On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 06:49:22PM +0100, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
> On 03/03/2016, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> > My point is that it might attract people that just upload data without
> > any benefit to OSM (wrong data or data that is added in many
> > changetsets (because that determines the ranking) instead of 1, as you
> > would normally do..
> > You can even write a script that creates a point in one changeset and
> > deletes it in another. Over and over again.
> 
> Even without talking about nefarious schemes, even well-meaning users
> will tend to change their mapping behavior because of this. In this
> case it's about uploading more often, potentially making changes
> harder to follow. 

imho it would be good if people would upload more often. Easier to revert
if it is wrong, more likely the changeset will fit into a reasonable 
bounding box.

However they should check that the edit was not done by a script. I don't think
this is ever going to work without human judgment.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 03/03/2016 06:11 PM, joost schouppe wrote:
> > I am surprised to see so few negative reactions. Nothing against the
> > idea, but it should be better thought out to avoid perverse incentives.
>
> I have no problem with this. If this leads mappers to do stupid edits,
> DWG will have to revert them all... with an account registered for
> rewards of course ;)
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> PS pls to be activatink irony detektor


You're not fooling anyone, Pitr Dubovich.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

On 03/03/2016 06:11 PM, joost schouppe wrote:
> I am surprised to see so few negative reactions. Nothing against the
> idea, but it should be better thought out to avoid perverse incentives.

I have no problem with this. If this leads mappers to do stupid edits,
DWG will have to revert them all... with an account registered for
rewards of course ;)

Bye
Frederik

PS pls to be activatink irony detektor

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread moltonel 3x Combo 
On 03/03/2016, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> My point is that it might attract people that just upload data without
> any benefit to OSM (wrong data or data that is added in many
> changetsets (because that determines the ranking) instead of 1, as you
> would normally do..
> You can even write a script that creates a point in one changeset and
> deletes it in another. Over and over again.

Even without talking about nefarious schemes, even well-meaning users
will tend to change their mapping behavior because of this. In this
case it's about uploading more often, potentially making changes
harder to follow. Choose a differnet metric, and it'll have a
different problem. The HR industry has tried to find metrics of worker
productivity for decades, but most do not work.

Plenty of OSM projects have done various levels of edit gamification,
and this is fine as long as (counterintuitively) it doesn't push too
much contributors to edit. And when your start bringing money (even a
tiny amount) into the picture, behaviours can change drastically.


But encouraging contributions to OSM is a great idea, and OsmAnd is in
a nice position to do that. Some examples that probably wouldn't hurt:
* Give access to the paid version of OsmAnd if the user has passed
certain editing thresholds. This is similar to the original idea, but
there is no money directly involved, and most importantly this is a
once-off perk.
* Popup notifications about nearby QA issues, like Vespucci does.
* Look at the heatmap of the user's editing/visiting locations, and
prompt the user to go (re)survey if there is a nearby cold spot.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Paul Johnson 
You realize that Osmand~ on f-droid is already Osmand+ right?

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:11 AM, joost schouppe 
wrote:

> I am surprised to see so few negative reactions. Nothing against the idea,
> but it should be better thought out to avoid perverse incentives.
>
> A quick solution someone already suggested was handing out free Osmand+
> installs.
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
> Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:
>
> > The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
> > me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
> > to verify the account...
>
> "We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
> standard unimaginative scam.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Nicolás Alvarez 
Why would they do that? Handing out free Osmand+ installs would *cost*
them money. This system *gets* them money (users donate, mappers get a
part, Osmand gets another part).

-- 
Nicolás

2016-03-03 14:11 GMT-03:00 joost schouppe :
> I am surprised to see so few negative reactions. Nothing against the idea,
> but it should be better thought out to avoid perverse incentives.
>
> A quick solution someone already suggested was handing out free Osmand+
> installs.
>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
> Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
>> me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
>> to verify the account...
>
> "We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
> standard unimaginative scam.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread joost schouppe 
I am surprised to see so few negative reactions. Nothing against the idea,
but it should be better thought out to avoid perverse incentives.

A quick solution someone already suggested was handing out free Osmand+
installs.
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

> The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
> me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
> to verify the account...

"We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
standard unimaginative scam.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Marc Gemis 
Yeah, just created a dedicated OSM account and start adding points and
ways, who cares that they have that password. It does have to be your
normal OSM account with "serious" password.

My point is that it might attract people that just upload data without
any benefit to OSM (wrong data or data that is added in many
changetsets (because that determines the ranking) instead of 1, as you
would normally do..
You can even write a script that creates a point in one changeset and
deletes it in another. Over and over again.

I fear that we might have to do more QA when this gets widely known.
I'm not thinking about honest mappers here, just about people that
misuse the system to earn bitcoins.

regards

m

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
> Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
>> me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
>> to verify the account...
>
> "We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
> standard unimaginative scam.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

> The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
> me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
> to verify the account...

"We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
standard unimaginative scam.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Nicolás Alvarez 

> El 3 mar 2016, a las 08:17, Marc Gemis  escribió:
> 
> If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
> mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
> based on the number of changesets you upload.
> 
> I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
> Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
> What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
> 
> 
> regards
> 
> m
> 
> 
> [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/osmand/x2XyIOtRBGE
> 

The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask me for my 
OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways to verify the 
account...

-- 
Nicolás
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Simon Poole 


Am 03.03.2016 um 12:42 schrieb Paul Johnson:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Marc Gemis  > wrote:
>
> So you will start making changesets where you move points  one pixel
> at the time to their final position ?  (just to increase the number of
> changesets) :-)
>
>
> My current ongoing project is to detail micromap all nearly 30,000
> lane-miles, over 8800 bridges, and around 150 highways in Oklahoma. 
> Which is enough for me to wish that id made lanes more obvious like
> JOSM did, because it's frustrating to go over something that was
> deliberately split to map lanes only to discover it merged for miles...

See
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/2016/Project_Ideas#Miscellaneous


With other words there is hope :-).

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> So you will start making changesets where you move points  one pixel
> at the time to their final position ?  (just to increase the number of
> changesets) :-)


My current ongoing project is to detail micromap all nearly 30,000
lane-miles, over 8800 bridges, and around 150 highways in Oklahoma.  Which
is enough for me to wish that id made lanes more obvious like JOSM did,
because it's frustrating to go over something that was deliberately split
to map lanes only to discover it merged for miles...
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Marc Gemis 
So you will start making changesets where you move points  one pixel
at the time to their final position ?  (just to increase the number of
changesets) :-)

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
>> mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
>> based on the number of changesets you upload.
>>
>> I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
>> Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
>> What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
>
>
> I agree this could be a QA disaster, but, if it gives me enough to live on,
> I'd totally dig it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
> mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
> based on the number of changesets you upload.
>
> I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
> Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
> What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
>

I agree this could be a QA disaster, but, if it gives me enough to live on,
I'd totally dig it.
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[OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

2016-03-03 Thread Marc Gemis 
If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
based on the number of changesets you upload.

I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?


regards

m






[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/osmand/x2XyIOtRBGE

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