Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 12:56:07 +0400 Gleb Smirnoff gleb...@glebius.int.ru wrote: Dave, On Sat, Oct 09, 2010 at 12:13:14AM +0100, Dave F. wrote: D The wiki page describes subjective information. D D Unless it's actually closed by authority don't say it's D impassible. For instance in defense of your argument that it's D impassable you say the average speed is 0.5km/h. This comment D proves the it *is* passable, just very slowly. No this one is not passable, and vast majority of other winter roads are not passable, too. Let me explain again: first, the photo is taken at a piece of winter road that is reachable by 4x4 vehicle. Evidently, I can't make a photo of a vehicle at a place where vehicle can't get to. If I walk there by foot, and make photo w/o vehicle on road, the photo won't tell anything: an untouched muskeg swamp looks like a meadow. Dmitri has added another photo of winter road, it demonstates better the terrain: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road It is no coincedence there is a Russian word, rasputitsa, which means roadlessness... __ Morten Juhl-Johansen Zölde-Fejér http://writtenandread.net * mor...@writtenandread.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
I think that whether a road is passable or impassable is certainly factual information, and no more subjective than whether it is 'residential', 'secondary' or 'track'. If a road is impassable in summer - or more than that, simply does not exist in summer, being just swamp - then this is a fact which should be tagged. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
I was just about to say that at least this winter road [1] is impassable at summer, but then I remembered about the Rinspeed sQuba [2]. [1] http://www.fotosidan.se/gallery/viewpic.htm/379398.htm [2] http://jalopnik.com/356461/rinspeed-squba-bonds-lotus-submarine-made-real Konrad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Dave, On Sat, Oct 09, 2010 at 12:13:14AM +0100, Dave F. wrote: D The wiki page describes subjective information. D D Unless it's actually closed by authority don't say it's impassible. For D instance in defense of your argument that it's impassable you say the D average speed is 0.5km/h. This comment proves the it *is* passable, just D very slowly. No this one is not passable, and vast majority of other winter roads are not passable, too. Let me explain again: first, the photo is taken at a piece of winter road that is reachable by 4x4 vehicle. Evidently, I can't make a photo of a vehicle at a place where vehicle can't get to. If I walk there by foot, and make photo w/o vehicle on road, the photo won't tell anything: an untouched muskeg swamp looks like a meadow. Dmitri has added another photo of winter road, it demonstates better the terrain: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road I didn't put that photo first, since composition doesn't include cutline going to horizon, no road seen. So, winter road may contain sections driveable by 4x4 in summer, but in most cases entire transit via winter road is not possible, due to river crossing, long on-swamp sections, etc. Second, 0.5 klm/h means unpassable if road is a distant one. The road photo is taken at is 150 klms long. Vehicle can't carry enough fuel to travel 150 klms at 0.5 klm/h speed. And no winch will survive that. Concerning authorities: in spring, when road starts to melt, but weather is still very cold, some roads are closed administratively, because entering them is a risk of death. In summer they are just abandoned, 4x4 fans may enter them and try theirselves. D The reason the vehicles in the picture needs winches is because they're D *not* suited to the terrain, not that the terrain is impassible. D D A colleague of mine has a Ural truck that *could* travel this way. D D *http://www.4wdonline.com/Mil/Ural/PiCs37/375D.jpg* Ha-ha! Believe me, Dave, Urals never ever drive winter roads in summer. This is what any Ural driver from northern Russia will tell you. A light 4x4 weighting 1.5 - 2.5 tons has more chances in swamp than Ural, whose empty chassy weight over 8 tons and average vehicle weigths over 11. And you can see on the second photo that we reached place, where deep ruts from Ural end, and untouched swamp begins. D As I said before, please don't tag ways based on your limited D experiences, tag them on *factual* information, leave subjective D decisions of whether they're *able* to the people traveling that way. Yes! This is what we are going to do. We want to mark winter roads as winter roads, and users may decide theirselves whether they are passable or not: look at satellite image, seek for swamps and river crossings and may be try theirselves. If you just dislike the word impassable in wiki page, we can transform it probably impassable or smth else, you prefer. And if you do a transit via long winter road in summer, on a road-legal vehicle, I owe you a box of beer. :) -- Totus tuus, Glebius. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Hello, the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be marked on map. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road -- Totus tuus, Glebius. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On 08/10/2010 12:30, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: Hello, the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be marked on map. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad information to put in OSM. For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable. Clearly it is not. I could go down it on foot, mountain bike or even a suitable motor vehicle despite what is said on the wiki. In fact, to me, it seems the first photo' is the more impassable as when snow is tamped it forms ice. If they are closed during the summer, tag it as that, since it's a fact. Add a from-to date tag if known. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Dave, On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 02:50:22PM +0100, Dave F. wrote: D the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be D marked on map. D D http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road D D This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad D information to put in OSM. No. It is not based on subjective opinion. Winter road is an official status of a road in Russia. It is the way it is marked on other maps. The road is officially closed, when it starts to melt. And it is officially serviced during winter. Please refer to wikipedia article. Winter road is not a subjective opinion. D For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable. Surely it is passable - you see two vehicles successfully passing it :) This is just a photo I made, where we could get to. But the road continues, crossing 5 meter deep swamps and rivers. What is your version for tagging this road, concerning that it is official way to a small town and is drivable at high speeds on regular vehicle in winter? Some parts of winter road may be passable in summer, some may not. Their condition in summer is unknown and not guaranteed, their condition in winter is guaranteed. This is special property of road that should be marked on map. D In fact, to me, it seems the first photo' is the more impassable as when D snow is tamped it forms ice. Slippery doesn't mean impassable. -- Totus tuus, Glebius. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 14:18, Gleb Smirnoff gleb...@glebius.int.ru wrote: On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 02:50:22PM +0100, Dave F. wrote: D the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be D marked on map. D D http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road D D This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad D information to put in OSM. No. It is not based on subjective opinion. Winter road is an official status of a road in Russia. It is the way it is marked on other maps. The road is officially closed, when it starts to melt. And it is officially serviced during winter. Please refer to wikipedia article. Winter road is not a subjective opinion. There have been discussions on and off about seasonal roads / opening times. See e.g.: http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg11274.html There are more like that, but I couldn't find any with a quick search. Anyway, since it's an official Winter road I recommend just tagging it as: XYZ:winter_road = yes Wher XYZ is the acronym or name of the Russian classification agency. But we probably want some sort of genaral scheme in the long term, e.g. in some countries there aren't winter roads but rather just roads with different degrees of guaranteed maintenance. Some roads might e.g. be plowed once a day in the winter, and others once a week. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Am 08.10.2010 13:30, schrieb Gleb Smirnoff: the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be marked on map. There is an opposite concept in the Alps, where some mountain passes are impassable during the winter months. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wintersperre (in German) I translated the most relevant section for you: == Highlighting winter closure on maps == In Switzerland you usually put the closure times next to the pass name using Roman numerals (typically in red color). For example, XI-V next to the Splügenpass means that the pass is presumably being closed from November (XI) to May (V). But of course it's not only roads that are closed during certain times of the year. In Germany, public open air pools are only open in the summer, while ice skating halls are only open in the winter. Ice cream parlors are also closed in the winter months. So instead of introducing a new tag for winter roads (and summer roads ...) I would suggest using existing tags such as date_on, date_off etc. for highways (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access ), and opening_hours for sports centres, ice cream parlors etc. Furthermore, you should use tags like surface=*, tracktype=* etc. on winter roads. Daniel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Hello, I want to support this guy's proposal. I have to say winter roads are a totally different thing than normal roads. In summer, there's just no road at all. NO ROAD. If you need to get somewhere, use river boats or helicopters. The area where a winter road is can be a swamp, a scrub, a forest (taiga), but there's no road in summer there, in fact in swamps it just can't be there. Even if one tries to build it there, he will hit one big obstacle called permafrost. Basically, in permafrost areas, in a few metres under the ground the land is frozen even by the end of summer. (that's because yearly average temperatures are sub-zero). The layer above, that melts and freezes with seasons, behaves very specifically. First, water in the molten layer can't percolate down through the frozen one below, and in plain areas just stays there, forming swamps, or just a land that's wetter than average in your place. When it freezes, it expands (since water is not a metal, it's most dense at +4 degrees, with temperature going down it EXPANDS, and pushes all around making a big pressure). Since the ground is uneven, guess what, if you put a road there, the surface will be pushed from below UNEVENLY. That's why even strong armed concrete does not guarantee the road will stand more than one winter. Add swamps that are widespread in permafrost, and try to guess how much it can cost to build a 200 km of a road. To get the idea, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permafrost So, that's why it's enormously costy to build a normal road there where winter roads exist. In winter, when the temperature is below 0 degrees C for MONTHS, ice is a stable and hard base and with a few work can make a good road. BTW, ice is not as slippery as on the ice rink in your city. You can ride on bare ice if the surface is rough. AND, in winter it snows, so in a matter of 1-2 weeks the road is a stiff compressed snow, which is as slippery as sand :) To sum up: winter roads are very special and have to be treated with respect and shown appropriately. It can't be any type of highway that we have now. You can't put there highway=unclassified, surface=ice and make a driver guess: hmm, is that road in 100 km to the north a normal one, or the navigator leads me into swamps? Hope that explains better, Dmitri. Novosibirsk -- ry...@ryba4.com http://ryba4.com icq 335635 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 19:23, Dmitri Lebedev siberia.acca...@gmail.com wrote: I want to support this guy's proposal. Then support it by starting to map it. Really, there's no reason to get formal approval for tags. Just write down on some Russian wikipage that winter roads are `winter_road=yes` or something like that. Then just use it, and if it's found to be lacking later it's easy to find all those tags and change them. Mapping is the bottleneck, not coming up with a perfect tagging scheme. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
Hi, Dave F., For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable. Clearly it is not. I could go down it on foot, mountain bike or even a suitable motor vehicle despite what is said on the wiki. Being young and dreaming is nice, but no, you couldn't. :) Basically, you'll have to carry the bike on yourself (and walk up to the knee in mud). The avg speed is 0.5 km/h. The cars in the picture move at the same speed with the aid of their winches. I tried such surfaces on MTB with and without rucksack. Even without weight you move really slowly. Technically, it is just the same as shallow swamp or a taiga forest, except there are no trees to cut to make way. ;) Dmitri, Novosibirsk -- ry...@ryba4.com http://ryba4.com icq 335635 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
