Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, September 9, 2009 21:44, Emilie Laffray wrote:
> 2009/9/9 Andrew Errington 
>
>
>>
>>
>> I don't disagree.  However, the convention has been established, and
>> it's not entirely a bad thing.  It means I can contribute to the map (in
>>  English) and I can read the map at the OSM site (because Mapnik
>> renders the name=* tag, not a language-specific tag).  Besides, it's
>> only one SQL update statement to change all of the name=* tags to the
>> content of any name:ko=* tag.
>>
>>
>> If OSM's Mapnik renderer would render in a selectable language, then I
>> would definitely discourage the English in parentheses.  As it is, this
>> way the map is useful to me in Korea, and to Koreans.
>>
>>
> You can already render in a specific language with Mapnik. The wikipedia
> people are currently experimenting with localized maps. It is just that
> the main map is using name by default. It was the reason for Stefan Korner
> push to translate all countries in the world in all different languages.

Just one more thing to add to this.  I just noticed the Japanese tagging
guide[1] also uses the convention that name=* should be Japanese followed
by a space and the name in English in parentheses.  The reason given is
for the Name finder[2] search to work properly.

I want to discuss this at talk-ko, but there aren't many members there
yet.  It seems that ceasing this convention would have knock-on effects,
but it's the right thing to do IMHO.

What I want is a map view where the name rendering can be chosen[3]:
1. name:xx
2. name:xx (name:yy)

1. renders "name:xx=*" if present and "name=*" if not
2. renders "name:xx=* (name:yy=*)".  If name:xx is not present then
"name=* (name:yy=*)", if name:yy is not present then "name:xx=*" (or
"name=*")

Andrew

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Names
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder
[3] and a pony.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Emilie Laffray]

2009/9/9 Gustav Foseid 

> How do we deal with all other languages than English that does not use
> Hangul characters? Do we need to tag all these place names with all language
> codes?


name=* should contain the native language value
name:en=* should contain the English translation
name:isocode should contain translation for that specific iso code
the _rm name is added for translitterated value of the native language

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Gustav Foseid]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Andrew Errington <
a.erring...@lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

> Actually, the convention is that objects should be tagged with four names.
>  The 'name=*' tag is Hangul followed by English in brackets.  This is the
> most important, as it is the 'fallback' tag for rendering a name.  The
> others are 'name:en=*' for the English name, 'name:ko=*' for the Korean
> name (in Hangul), and 'name:ko_rm=*' for the Romanised Korean name.
>

How do we deal with all other languages than English that does not use
Hangul characters? Do we need to tag all these place names with all language
codes?

 - Gustav
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Emilie Laffray]

2009/9/9 Andrew Errington 

>
>
> I don't disagree.  However, the convention has been established, and it's
> not entirely a bad thing.  It means I can contribute to the map (in
> English) and I can read the map at the OSM site (because Mapnik renders
> the name=* tag, not a language-specific tag).  Besides, it's only one SQL
> update statement to change all of the name=* tags to the content of any
> name:ko=* tag.
>
> If OSM's Mapnik renderer would render in a selectable language, then I
> would definitely discourage the English in parentheses.  As it is, this
> way the map is useful to me in Korea, and to Koreans.
>
>
You can already render in a specific language with Mapnik. The wikipedia
people are currently experimenting with localized maps. It is just that the
main map is using name by default. It was the reason for Stefan Korner push
to translate all countries in the world in all different languages.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, September 9, 2009 09:52, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> 2009/9/8 Andrew Errington :

>> By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list,
>> but nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).
>
> It seems a number of mappers have been discouraged by the mass
> importer deleting their data,
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/vineldi/diary/6970

I agree that this is an issue, but the mapper could find out who
deleted/edited their work and contact them to ask why (although they go on
to say that the language barrier makes this difficult).

It is also true that there was very little data a year ago, but a couple
of months ago there was a bulk upload of major roads from government data.
 In some areas this has duplicated roads that were already there.

There has also been bulk uploads of POIs from two sources, mp2osm and
http://kr.open.gugi.yahoo.com.

The POIs were present before I started mapping, and the major road upload
was added after.  In my town there were no streets or local roads, so I
have been focusing on those.

I am not sure if I like what has happened, but on the other hand it has
added some shape to an otherwise blank canvas.  I have found that some of
the uploaded POIs are non-existent in real life, or in the wrong place.  I
have also found that the kind of POIs are a little banal- mostly clinics
and fish restaurants.  Fortunately my town is small, so I can add streets
without worrying about the major roads, and I can verify each POI as I
encounter it.

I am hoping that the talk-ko mailing list can start addressing issues like
this.  At the moment there is no cohesion with mappers, their data, and
their discussions in Korea.  In the meantime, even a small town takes a
while to map...

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/8 Andrew Errington :
>> Could someone check, if they are realy there?
>
> This is a side-effect of a bulk-upload.  In Korea clinics and private
> doctors are known as 'hospitals', as well as hospitals.  At least, I think
> so.  They need to be changed to something other than 'hospital', but it
> will take a while as there are only a handful of mappers in Korea.

Yeah, I don't think this data needs to be checked, it's from official
sources, it just needs to be fixed because the import has been done
poorly.  Especially when there is that much data, it doesn't make
sense to ask if someone could go and check it :)

>
>>
>> This looks also very nice:
>> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.9786415
>> 8&zoom=13&layers=BF000F
>
> Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.
>
> By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
> nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).

It seems a number of mappers have been discouraged by the mass
importer deleting their data,
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/vineldi/diary/6970

Regards

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, September 9, 2009 02:28, Ed Avis wrote:
> Shouldn't the name tags in Seoul also be fixed a bit?  Instead of a
> Hangul name
> followed by a Latin-alphabet name in brackets, wouldn't it be better to
> tag name...@hangul and name...@latin separately?

Actually, the convention is that objects should be tagged with four names.
 The 'name=*' tag is Hangul followed by English in brackets.  This is the
most important, as it is the 'fallback' tag for rendering a name.  The
others are 'name:en=*' for the English name, 'name:ko=*' for the Korean
name (in Hangul), and 'name:ko_rm=*' for the Romanised Korean name.

To some degree this information is redundant, but I am only following the
Korean mapping recommendations here:



Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Ed Avis]

Shouldn't the name tags in Seoul also be fixed a bit?  Instead of a Hangul name
followed by a Latin-alphabet name in brackets, wouldn't it be better to tag
name...@hangul and name...@latin separately?

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Marc Schütz]

> > This looks also very nice:
> >
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.97864158&zoom=13&layers=BF000F
> 
> Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.

No, the problem is the hundreds of place=town. Most of these should probably 
suburbs.

Besides that, there are also a lot of amenity=arts_centre (even more than 
place=town). These also look suspicious.

Regards, Marc


-- 
Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Michael Collinson]

At 12:40 08/09/2009, Andrew Errington wrote:
>By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
>nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!).
>Hopefully this sort of thing can be brought up and solved.

Subscribe to talk-ko at

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo

Mike


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seoul

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, September 8, 2009 19:09, Raphael Studer wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I've found a lot of hospitals in Seoul:
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.50829282&lon=127.036834
> 7&zoom=14&layers=BF000F
> Could someone check, if they are realy there?

This is a side-effect of a bulk-upload.  In Korea clinics and private
doctors are known as 'hospitals', as well as hospitals.  At least, I think
so.  They need to be changed to something other than 'hospital', but it
will take a while as there are only a handful of mappers in Korea.

>
> This looks also very nice:
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.9786415
> 8&zoom=13&layers=BF000F

Looks like a font size issue in the renderer.

By the way, I just requested the creation of a talk-ko mailing list, but
nothing's happening there yet (only a handful of mappers here!). 
Hopefully this sort of thing can be brought up and solved.

Thanks,

Andrew


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[OSM-talk] Seoul

[Raphael Studer]

Hi,

I've found a lot of hospitals in Seoul:
http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.50829282&lon=127.0368347&zoom=14&layers=BF000F
Could someone check, if they are realy there?

This looks also very nice:
http://www.informationfreeway.org/index.php?lat=37.5760761&lon=126.97864158&zoom=13&layers=BF000F

Cheers,
Raphael

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