[OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Matthijs Melissen]

Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs, such as:

- 'Private road'
- 'Private road no parking'
- 'Private road no parking no turning'
- 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'

How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use access=private?

Thanks in advance.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs, such
>> as:
>>
>> - 'Private road'
>> - 'Private road no parking'
>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
>>
>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
>> access=private?
>>
> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are additional
> signs that forbid entering.
> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you normally may use
> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery purposes.

Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Colin Smale]

It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather complicated in the 
UK. Private means private, so no entry by default. If you are visiting an 
address on a private road, you have presumably been invited, explicitly or 
implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents only" might not have any force in 
law. A road in private ownership, with a public right of way, can be used 
though if it is a "byway open to all traffic". Landowners often object to 
rights of way across their land and might try to discourage their use with 
misleading signs.


On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen  
wrote:
>On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs,
>such
>>> as:
>>>
>>> - 'Private road'
>>> - 'Private road no parking'
>>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
>>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
>>>
>>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
>>> access=private?
>>>
>> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
>additional
>> signs that forbid entering.
>> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you normally
>may use
>> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
>purposes.
>
>Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
>where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
>legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
>
>-- Matthijs
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Craig Wallace]

On 2014-08-03 11:00, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs, such as:

- 'Private road'
- 'Private road no parking'
- 'Private road no parking no turning'
- 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'

How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use access=private?

Thanks in advance.


Depends on just what sort of road it is, and how it is signed. ie are 
they actually official signs or something more homemade.


Often a "Private road" sign is specifically referring to motor vehicles, 
so it should just be tagged as motor_vehicle=private (or motor_vehicle=no).
In Scotland, you would generally have a right to walk or cycle there 
etc, so should also be tagged as foot=yes, bicycle=yes. Not sure about 
the legality in England and Wales.


Craig

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Colin Smale]

On 2014-08-03 16:24, Craig Wallace wrote:


On 2014-08-03 11:00, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs, 
such as: - 'Private road' - 'Private road no parking' - 'Private road 
no parking no turning' - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or 
turning' How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you 
use access=private? Thanks in advance.


Depends on just what sort of road it is, and how it is signed. ie are 
they actually official signs or something more homemade.


Often a "Private road" sign is specifically referring to motor 
vehicles, so it should just be tagged as motor_vehicle=private (or 
motor_vehicle=no).


How about horses? How do you conclude that these signs are only for 
motor vehicles?


In Scotland, you would generally have a right to walk or cycle there 
etc, so should also be tagged as foot=yes, bicycle=yes.


There are exceptions to this, which include "Land on which there is a 
house, caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or 
shelter, and sufficient adjacent land to enable those living there to 
have reasonable measures of privacy and to ensure that their enjoyment 
of the house or place is not unreasonably disturbed." IANAL but I 
suspect this might be applicable to residential roads in private 
ownership.



Not sure about the legality in England and Wales.


Land ownership in E&W is absolute isn't it? Trumped only by a public 
right-of-way.




Craig

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Colin Smale]

 

As this discussion is about UK specifics, I thought it would be a good
plan to reach out to the talk-GB list. 

--colin 

On 2014-08-03 16:44, Colin Smale wrote: 

> On 2014-08-03 16:24, Craig Wallace wrote:
> On 2014-08-03 11:00, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Residential roads in the UK 
> often seem to have 'private road' signs, such as: - 'Private road' - 'Private 
> road no parking' - 'Private road no parking no turning' - 'Residents only no 
> unauthorised parking or turning' How do people tag these roads? For which of 
> these would you use access=private? Thanks in advance. Depends on just what 
> sort of road it is, and how it is signed. ie are they actually official signs 
> or something more homemade. Often a "Private road" sign is specifically 
> referring to motor vehicles, so it should just be tagged as 
> motor_vehicle=private (or motor_vehicle=no).

How about horses? How do you conclude that these signs are only for
motor vehicles?

> In Scotland, you would generally have a right to walk or cycle there etc, so 
> should also be tagged as foot=yes, bicycle=yes.

There are exceptions to this, which include "Land on which there is a
house, caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or
shelter, and sufficient adjacent land to enable those living there to
have reasonable measures of privacy and to ensure that their enjoyment
of the house or place is not unreasonably disturbed." IANAL but I
suspect this might be applicable to residential roads in private
ownership.

> Not sure about the legality in England and Wales.

Land ownership in E&W is absolute isn't it? Trumped only by a public
right-of-way.

> Craig ___ talk mailing list 
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> [1]]

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/08/14 15:49, Colin Smale wrote:

As this discussion is about UK specifics, I thought it would be a good
plan to reach out to the talk-GB list.


The only things I would say you can commonly assume from such signs are 
that the road is unadopted, and that the residents/owners would like you 
to think that they can control access to it.


In reality such roads may, even though they are not adopted and are 
hence not maintained at public expense, be highways with an associated 
right of way for the public.


It's quite likely that the owners have the right to control parking but 
less likely that they have the right to control access and passing along 
the road.


See, for example:

http://www3.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/atoz/a_to_z/service.asp?u_id=1065&tab=3&siteid=5409&pageid=29027&e=e

Tom


--colin

On 2014-08-03 16:44, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2014-08-03 16:24, Craig Wallace wrote:

On 2014-08-03 11:00, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs,
such as: - 'Private road' - 'Private road no parking' - 'Private
road no parking no turning' - 'Residents only no unauthorised
parking or turning' How do people tag these roads? For which of
these would you use access=private? Thanks in advance.

Depends on just what sort of road it is, and how it is signed. ie are
they actually official signs or something more homemade. Often a
"Private road" sign is specifically referring to motor vehicles, so
it should just be tagged as motor_vehicle=private (or motor_vehicle=no).

How about horses? How do you conclude that these signs are only for motor 
vehicles?

In Scotland, you would generally have a right to walk or cycle there
etc, so should also be tagged as foot=yes, bicycle=yes.

There are exceptions to this, which include "Land on which there is a house, 
caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter, and sufficient 
adjacent land to enable those living there to have reasonable measures of privacy and to 
ensure that their enjoyment of the house or place is not unreasonably disturbed." 
IANAL but I suspect this might be applicable to residential roads in private ownership.

Not sure about the legality in England and Wales.

Land ownership in E&W is absolute isn't it? Trumped only by a public 
right-of-way.

Craig ___ talk mailing
list talk@openstreetmap.org 
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]

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Tom Hughes]

On 03/08/14 17:02, Tom Hughes wrote:


See, for example:

http://www3.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/atoz/a_to_z/service.asp?u_id=1065&tab=3&siteid=5409&pageid=29027&e=e


http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn00402.pdf is also informative.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[John F. Eldredge]

In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given permission for 
public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex is signed as 
"residents and guests only", for example, an outsider driving through can be 
charged with trespassing.


On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale  wrote:
> It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
> complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
> If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
> been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents
> only" might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
> with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a "byway open
> to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way across their
> land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
> 
> 
> On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
>  wrote:
> >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
> signs,
> >such
> >>> as:
> >>>
> >>> - 'Private road'
> >>> - 'Private road no parking'
> >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
> >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
> >>>
> >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
> >>> access=private?
> >>>
> >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
> >additional
> >> signs that forbid entering.
> >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you
> normally
> >may use
> >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
> >purposes.
> >
> >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
> >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
> >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
> >
> >-- Matthijs
> >
> >___
> >talk mailing list
> >talk@openstreetmap.org
> >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 
> 
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out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[john whelan]

In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to the days of
pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't think you have the
equivalent in North America.  So in the UK a right of way may still follow
a privately maintained road.

It's probably better to leave the tagging of this to local mappers who
hopefully know the rules/laws and they are different in different countries.

Cheerio John


On 3 August 2014 21:35, John F. Eldredge  wrote:

> In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given
> permission for public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex
> is signed as "residents and guests only", for example, an outsider driving
> through can be charged with trespassing.
>
>
> On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale 
> wrote:
> > It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
> > complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
> > If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
> > been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents
> > only" might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
> > with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a "byway open
> > to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way across their
> > land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
> >
> >
> > On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
> >  wrote:
> > >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> > >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
> > signs,
> > >such
> > >>> as:
> > >>>
> > >>> - 'Private road'
> > >>> - 'Private road no parking'
> > >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
> > >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
> > >>>
> > >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
> > >>> access=private?
> > >>>
> > >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
> > >additional
> > >> signs that forbid entering.
> > >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you
> > normally
> > >may use
> > >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
> > >purposes.
> > >
> > >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
> > >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
> > >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
> > >
> > >-- Matthijs
> > >
> > >___
> > >talk mailing list
> > >talk@openstreetmap.org
> > >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> --
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot
> drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[john whelan]

Whilst I think of it there are some footpaths and roads in the UK which are
open to the public on 364 days a year but closed one day a year to prevent
them from becoming a public right of way.

Cheerio John


On 3 August 2014 21:47, john whelan  wrote:

> In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to the days of
> pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't think you have the
> equivalent in North America.  So in the UK a right of way may still follow
> a privately maintained road.
>
> It's probably better to leave the tagging of this to local mappers who
> hopefully know the rules/laws and they are different in different countries.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
> On 3 August 2014 21:35, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
>
>> In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given
>> permission for public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex
>> is signed as "residents and guests only", for example, an outsider driving
>> through can be charged with trespassing.
>>
>>
>> On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale 
>> wrote:
>> > It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
>> > complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
>> > If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
>> > been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents
>> > only" might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
>> > with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a "byway open
>> > to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way across their
>> > land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
>> >  wrote:
>> > >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> > >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
>> > signs,
>> > >such
>> > >>> as:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> - 'Private road'
>> > >>> - 'Private road no parking'
>> > >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
>> > >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
>> > >>>
>> > >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
>> > >>> access=private?
>> > >>>
>> > >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
>> > >additional
>> > >> signs that forbid entering.
>> > >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you
>> > normally
>> > >may use
>> > >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
>> > >purposes.
>> > >
>> > >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
>> > >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
>> > >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
>> > >
>> > >-- Matthijs
>> > >
>> > >___
>> > >talk mailing list
>> > >talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>> --
>> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
>> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot
>> drive out hate; only love can do that."
>> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Kevin Broderick]

It varies by jurisdiction within the U.S., too; Vermont has an "Ancient
Roads" doctrine that has kept many right-of-ways legally open despite towns
no longer maintaining them. It gets a bit more complicated in that some of
them are posted contrary to their legal status, and the only way to
definitively answer the question at this point in time is to dig through
local records dating back to the founding of the town in question. Vermont
has changed the law recently to require all towns document all their
right-of-ways on the standard town highway maps within a certain number of
years, which I think is coming up soon. I believe that New Hampshire and
Maine also have historic right-of-ways that are no longer town-maintained
but are still legally open to public travel.

To bring this back on topic (at least somewhat), I've been tagging many of
the Vermont ancient roads as tracks (which they are) and explicitly setting
motor_vehicle=yes, foot=yes, etc to indicate public access. Whether or not
to route on such ways is a whole other topic, I suspect.


On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:47 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to the days of
> pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't think you have the
> equivalent in North America.  So in the UK a right of way may still follow
> a privately maintained road.
>
> It's probably better to leave the tagging of this to local mappers who
> hopefully know the rules/laws and they are different in different countries.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
> On 3 August 2014 21:35, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
>
>> In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given
>> permission for public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex
>> is signed as "residents and guests only", for example, an outsider driving
>> through can be charged with trespassing.
>>
>>
>> On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale 
>> wrote:
>> > It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
>> > complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
>> > If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
>> > been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents
>> > only" might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
>> > with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a "byway open
>> > to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way across their
>> > land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
>> >  wrote:
>> > >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> > >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
>> > signs,
>> > >such
>> > >>> as:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> - 'Private road'
>> > >>> - 'Private road no parking'
>> > >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
>> > >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
>> > >>>
>> > >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
>> > >>> access=private?
>> > >>>
>> > >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
>> > >additional
>> > >> signs that forbid entering.
>> > >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you
>> > normally
>> > >may use
>> > >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
>> > >purposes.
>> > >
>> > >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
>> > >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
>> > >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
>> > >
>> > >-- Matthijs
>> > >
>> > >___
>> > >talk mailing list
>> > >talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>> --
>> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
>> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot
>> drive out hate; only love can do that."
>> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
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>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Pierre Riteau]

These are generally called permissive paths.



On Mon, 4 Aug 2014, at 02:55 AM, john whelan wrote:

Whilst I think of it there are some footpaths and roads in the
UK which are open to the public on 364 days a year but closed
one day a year to prevent them from becoming a public right of
way.

Cheerio John



On 3 August 2014 21:47, john whelan <[1]jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
wrote:

In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to
the days of pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't
think you have the equivalent in North America.  So in the UK a
right of way may still follow a privately maintained road.

It's probably better to leave the tagging of this to local
mappers who hopefully know the rules/laws and they are
different in different countries.

Cheerio John



On 3 August 2014 21:35, John F. Eldredge
<[2]j...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:

In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has
given permission for public use.  If a private road through an
apartment complex is signed as "residents and guests only", for
example, an outsider driving through can be charged with
trespassing.





On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale
<[3]colin.sm...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather

> complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by
default.

> If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have
presumably

> been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign
"residents

> only" might not have any force in law. A road in private
ownership,

> with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a
"byway open

> to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way
across their

> land and might try to discourage their use with misleading
signs.

>

>

> On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen

> <[4]i...@matthijsmelissen.nl> wrote:

> >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt
<[5]vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private
road'

> signs,

> >such

> >>> as:

> >>>

> >>> - 'Private road'

> >>> - 'Private road no parking'

> >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'

> >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'

> >>>

> >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would
you use

> >>> access=private?

> >>>

> >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there
are

> >additional

> >> signs that forbid entering.

> >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but
you

> normally

> >may use

> >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for
delivery

> >purposes.

> >

> >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical
situation

> >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would
there be a

> >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?

> >

> >-- Matthijs

> >

> >___

> >talk mailing list

> >[6]talk@openstreetmap.org

> >[7]https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

>

>

>
---
-

>

> ___

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--

John F. Eldredge -- [10]j...@jfeldredge.com

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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References

1. mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com
2. mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com
3. mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl
4. mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
5. mailto:vosc...@gmail.com
6. mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org
7. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
8. mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org
9. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
  10. mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com
  11. mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org
  12. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
  13. mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org
  14. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Matthijs,

Spotted the following sign related to your "tagging of private roads"
discussion the other day. Enjoy :-)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6J5ZA1hu93beGxtSTVGeUR2aFRqQzdaYXNGR0d6WlBhQXFr/edit?usp=sharing

Rob
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Matthijs Melissen]

access=yes, skateboard=no, bicycle=careful? :)

-- Matthijs

On 10 August 2014 16:33, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
> Hi Matthijs,
>
> Spotted the following sign related to your "tagging of private roads"
> discussion the other day. Enjoy :-)
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6J5ZA1hu93beGxtSTVGeUR2aFRqQzdaYXNGR0d6WlBhQXFr/edit?usp=sharing
>
> Rob

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 8:47 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to the days of
> pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't think you have the
> equivalent in North America.


Let me introduce you to the four westernmost timezones out of the five used
in the 50 states...
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Russ Nelson]

Paul Johnson writes:
 > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 8:47 PM, john whelan  wrote:
 > 
 > > In the UK there are rights of way which date back in time to the days of
 > > pack horses and long distance footpaths.  I don't think you have the
 > > equivalent in North America.
 > 
 > Let me introduce you to the four westernmost timezones out of the five used
 > in the 50 states...

Five. Vermont has the concept of legal rights of way that don't expire
from disuse.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Bryce Nesbitt]

How do I use and tag private roads?
I don't really bother.

If a road is open for travel I don't care much if it's private.
If a road has a gate, then, um, at least in most cases it's off limits.


The gate is a better signal for routing compared to private/public.
There are too may private roads that are fully open for general
traffic.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 07/set/2014, alle ore 09:11, Bryce Nesbitt  
> ha scritto:
> 
> How do I use and tag private roads?
> I don't really bother.
> 
> If a road is open for travel I don't care much if it's private.
> If a road has a gate, then, um, at least in most cases it's off limits.
> 
> 
> The gate is a better signal for routing compared to private/public.
> There are too may private roads that are fully open for general
> traffic.



Generally we don't tag ownership but only access rights (access=private for 
restricted access, used e.g. on highways and gate nodes). You could use 
something like proprietor_type=private


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Andy Mabbett]

On 7 September 2014 11:45, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> Generally we don't tag ownership but only access rights

What about operator= ?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[Lists]

In Brazil the operator= tag is used for who is responsible for maintenance of a 
certain highway, In Brazil we have mainly 3 levels of administration indicating 
who is responsible for financing, who owns the property under the highway, etc 
(these 3 levels are federal, state, and municipal highways), legally there can 
exist private highways, though these would most likely be access roads to 
certain industrial areas (I think there are negotiations whether the access 
highway to Porto de Açu (Açu Superport) will be private (EBX Group) or state 
(Rio de Janeiro state), but this is an exceptional case). Many state and 
federal highways have been contracted to private companies for improving road 
quality and to do maintenance. Such contracts can be for the entire length of a 
highway or for a specific part, the federal highways in the state Rio Grande do 
Sul is maybe the most extreme cases, where the same highway might have up to 5 
different operator contracts, each a shorter section, or it can be as in 
Espírito Santo state where the federal BR-101 highway have been granted in one 
single contract of 25 years through the entire state.

In Brazil, the operator= tag have also been used where the proper government 
organisations are responsible for maintenance, such as operator=DER-MG (or can 
also be noted as operator=DER/MG). In the case of concessions (private 
maintenance), the tag can be operator=ECO-101, operator=“Autopista Fluminense”, 
etc. In other words, if EBX group will be financing the access road to Açu, the 
tag can be operator=EBX (or the name of the daughter company), but they might 
also outsource the maintenance, like what was announced a few months ago 
regarding the operation of Açu Port, where it was announced that LLX (the EBX 
company for logistics) will not be operating the port after all.

In theory a property tag can be used to denote the owner of the highway, though 
I think this in many cases are covered in a network tag (in Brazil we use a 
scheme of network tags for denoting federal, state and municipal highways), 
which could be extended for private highways, though I feel the tag name 
probably will be wrong, a private highway will most likely not form part of a 
larger network, and most likely be of a limited extension.

I am not sure how this translates to other countries though

Aun Johnsen

On Sep 7, 2014, at 9:00, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 12:24:50 +0100
> From: Andy Mabbett 
> To: "osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org" 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On 7 September 2014 11:45, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
>> Generally we don't tag ownership but only access rights
> 
> What about operator= ?
> 
> -- 
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads (Matthijs Melissen)

[Volker Schmidt]

> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road' signs, such
> as:
>
> - 'Private road'
> - 'Private road no parking'
> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
>
> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
> access=private?
>
> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are additional
signs that forbid entering.
A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you normally may
use it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
purposes.

Volker
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads (Matthijs Melissen)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 03/ago/2014, alle ore 12:18, Volker Schmidt  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are additional 
> signs that forbid entering.
> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you normally may use 
> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery purposes.


even more if you are not a car, most of these signs in areas like Italy and 
Germany are put up against cars to avoid occupying them the usually rare 
resource parking space.

The general truth is, that you might have to do further research for every 
individual case in order to put it right. Ownership and right of way are 
orthogonal and often "private road" refers to ownership and not to  the right 
of way. Road owners sometimes try to discourage usage of their roads, even if 
legally everyone is entitled to use it.

cheers,
Martin
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