Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/12/2 Peter Körner 

> Hi
>
> > as an programmer my first bolean thoughts where
> An as a foreign national my thoughts were "And I thought OSM was an
> international project..".
>
>
what does not mean you can't use features that appear only in some parts of
the world. I never used village_green, because: if it's not a village green,
don't use this tag...


> > 3) Yes, I think it's a dumb tag too. One of the legacies of its very
> > English history. It would be much better off as a landuse=* tag
> > describing it as publicly owned grass, with an amenity=* tag or
> > something identifying it as the village green.
>

just invent your own tags for your own needs, and use them. What's the
problem with this one, if you don't have the feature in your area?


> We need to get a world-wide usable description for it. If we can't get
> one, we should mark it as deprecated.


-1, or better: +1: tag worldwide all village_greens according to English law
with village_green.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Barnett, Phillip]

To be fair, 'village green' has an explicit definition in English law, which is 
presumably why whoever originally defined it put the word 'English' in. Agreed, 
that it doesn't have to be in a village, but can be in (or, indeed, outside) 
any sized population centre.
See http://www.oss.org.uk/village-greens/ where the precise legal definition in 
England and Wales is given. Basically, any land which has been openly used by 
local people for recreation for twenty years without objection can be 
registered as common land in perpetuity, and so protected from development.


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From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On 
Behalf Of Martin Fossdal Guttesen
Sent: 03 December 2009 01:42
To: Steve Bennett
Cc: talk openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

i wrote before
>landusehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse>=village_greenhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green>
An open area of grass in the centre of an English village.

 and Peter Kõrner wrote
> An as a foreign national my thoughts were "And I thought OSM was an
> international project..".

what i ment was that there is nothing wrong with the tag, just the descritption 
of it
the descriptin is extreemly explicit
it says that this tag can only be used in an village and it has to be an 
egnlish village and it also has to be in the center of the vilage



From: Steve Bennett<mailto:stevag...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:09 AM
To: Open Street Map mailing list<mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

I think I might write up some cross-cutting wiki pages like "vegetation", 
pointing people in the right directions for the subtle distinctions between 
natural= and landuse= etc.

Ok, I did it.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Lots of common bush/tree words link there.

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Mike Harris]

... Yes, fully agreed ... (and I wasn't being terribly serious as it was
getting near time to go and open a bottle of foreign wine (;>) and watch a
movie).

Although it may sometimes be useful to supplement the internationally
applicable / useful with an indication of regional / national differences
where 'locals' may wish to add data to the database that might be of use for
'local' purposes ... Or where the use of the same word in one language (e.g.
in British English) may have different meanings in different locations in
order to assist with disambiguation.

Mike Harris
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Körner [mailto:osm-li...@mazdermind.de] 
> Sent: 02 December 2009 21:13
> To: 'talk openstreetmap.org'
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Harris schrieb:
> > (... Not entirely seriously ...)
> > 
> > If OSM is an international project - and IMHO it most 
> certainly IS and 
> > should be! - then what can you possibly mean by your phrase 
> 'foreign 
> > national'? Or are you extraterrestrial ... In which case 
> 'welcome to 
> > planet earth' - but, as OSM is a community-drive project I 
> am so sorry 
> > but 'we cannot take you to our leader'.
> > 
> > My wife is only foreign when she is in England ... And I am only 
> > foreign when I am not ...
> 
> Okay, okay, you're right.
> 
> But maybe I get a second chance to phrase it like this:
> 
> If this page is meant to give an overview, then, in a 
> international project, it should only contain things that are 
> useful all around the world.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Martin Fossdal Guttesen]

i wrote before 
 
>landuse=village_green 
An open area of grass in the centre of an English village.

 and Peter Kõrner wrote
> An as a foreign national my thoughts were "And I thought OSM was an 
> international project..".


what i ment was that there is nothing wrong with the tag, just the descritption 
of it 
the descriptin is extreemly explicit
it says that this tag can only be used in an village and it has to be an 
egnlish village and it also has to be in the center of the vilage 




From: Steve Bennett 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:09 AM
To: Open Street Map mailing list 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page


  I think I might write up some cross-cutting wiki pages like "vegetation", 
pointing people in the right directions for the subtle distinctions between 
natural= and landuse= etc.



Ok, I did it.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Lots of common bush/tree words link there.

Steve 








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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Steve Bennett]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Peter Körner  wrote:
> If this page is meant to give an overview, then, in a international
> project, it should only contain things that are useful all around the world.

I'm not sure that this actually matters, but I think your argument is
weak here. Say there was a tag for a certain type of plant that only
grows in one country. We'd still keep the tag, and document it with
all the other plant types.

What you're probably really getting at is that the "village green"
concept has similar enough homologues in other countries that whoever
invented it could have thought just a little bit harder about making a
useful cross-cultural tag. Oh well.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/12/2 Peter Körner :
> Mike Harris schrieb:
>> (... Not entirely seriously ...)
>>
>> If OSM is an international project - and IMHO it most certainly IS and
>> should be! - then what can you possibly mean by your phrase 'foreign
>> national'? Or are you extraterrestrial ... In which case 'welcome to planet
>> earth' - but, as OSM is a community-drive project I am so sorry but 'we
>> cannot take you to our leader'.
>>
>> My wife is only foreign when she is in England ... And I am only foreign
>> when I am not ...
>
> Okay, okay, you're right.
>
> But maybe I get a second chance to phrase it like this:
>
> If this page is meant to give an overview, then, in a international
> project, it should only contain things that are useful all around the world.

I think that tag can be easily useful around the world, it only needs
a correct description using physical and other characteristics.  The
value of openstreetmap (on of them anyway) is in being global and
using the same code for an equivalent feature in York and in Hanoi so
you can, say, make proper statistics with it.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Peter Körner]

Mike Harris schrieb:
> (... Not entirely seriously ...)
> 
> If OSM is an international project - and IMHO it most certainly IS and
> should be! - then what can you possibly mean by your phrase 'foreign
> national'? Or are you extraterrestrial ... In which case 'welcome to planet
> earth' - but, as OSM is a community-drive project I am so sorry but 'we
> cannot take you to our leader'.
> 
> My wife is only foreign when she is in England ... And I am only foreign
> when I am not ...

Okay, okay, you're right.

But maybe I get a second chance to phrase it like this:

If this page is meant to give an overview, then, in a international 
project, it should only contain things that are useful all around the world.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Mike Harris]

(... Not entirely seriously ...)

If OSM is an international project - and IMHO it most certainly IS and
should be! - then what can you possibly mean by your phrase 'foreign
national'? Or are you extraterrestrial ... In which case 'welcome to planet
earth' - but, as OSM is a community-drive project I am so sorry but 'we
cannot take you to our leader'.

My wife is only foreign when she is in England ... And I am only foreign
when I am not ...

Mike Harris
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Körner [mailto:osm-li...@mazdermind.de] 
> Sent: 02 December 2009 18:41
> To: talk openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page
> 
> Hi
> 
> > as an programmer my first bolean thoughts where
> An as a foreign national my thoughts were "And I thought OSM 
> was an international project..".
> 
> > Ok, a couple of points need to be made here:
> > 
> > 1) It's just a disambiguation page. It even says that the 
> definitions 
> > aren't official.
> What the hell is "official"? This is a community driven project!
> 
> > 2) Your comment indicates that there is value in collecting 
> together 
> > these definitions together in little knowledge bases to 
> provoke discussion.
> > 3) Yes, I think it's a dumb tag too. One of the legacies of 
> its very 
> > English history. It would be much better off as a landuse=* tag 
> > describing it as publicly owned grass, with an amenity=* tag or 
> > something identifying it as the village green. But what can you do.
> We need to get a world-wide usable description for it. If we 
> can't get one, we should mark it as deprecated.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Steve Bennett]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Peter Körner  wrote:
> What the hell is "official"? This is a community driven project!

Hopefully there is a difference between a democracy and anarchy.

> We need to get a world-wide usable description for it. If we can't get
> one, we should mark it as deprecated.

Well...a highly specific tag that meets a specific purpose is not
causing harm. But the lack of useful tags for the rest of the world
is.

There are already several words for grass, and I wish there were more.
Two in particular:
1) Lawn. As in, short-cut grass that is nice to sit on. Useful in the
context of large built up areas where the lawn has some sort of
decorative purpose, or within gardens, etc. Clearly not a meadow, nor
pasture, nor fell ground...and "park" isn't going to cut it either.
2) Public grass, as described before.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Peter Körner]

Hi

> as an programmer my first bolean thoughts where
An as a foreign national my thoughts were "And I thought OSM was an 
international project..".

> Ok, a couple of points need to be made here:
> 
> 1) It's just a disambiguation page. It even says that the definitions 
> aren't official.
What the hell is "official"? This is a community driven project!

> 2) Your comment indicates that there is value in collecting together 
> these definitions together in little knowledge bases to provoke discussion.
> 3) Yes, I think it's a dumb tag too. One of the legacies of its very 
> English history. It would be much better off as a landuse=* tag 
> describing it as publicly owned grass, with an amenity=* tag or 
> something identifying it as the village green. But what can you do.
We need to get a world-wide usable description for it. If we can't get 
one, we should mark it as deprecated.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Martin Fossdal Guttesen <
mgutte...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  ok i know this is just provoking a little bit, but look at this
> description
>
>  landuse 
> =village_green
>  An
> open area of grass in the centre of an English village.
>
>  as an programmer my first bolean thoughts where
> so this tag can only be used if it is an english village, so if it is in an
> english town or Danish village you cant use is , and also just if it is in
> the center
>

Ok, a couple of points need to be made here:

1) It's just a disambiguation page. It even says that the definitions aren't
official.
2) Your comment indicates that there is value in collecting together these
definitions together in little knowledge bases to provoke discussion.
3) Yes, I think it's a dumb tag too. One of the legacies of its very English
history. It would be much better off as a landuse=* tag describing it as
publicly owned grass, with an amenity=* tag or something identifying it as
the village green. But what can you do.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Martin Fossdal Guttesen]

ok i know this is just provoking a little bit, but look at this description

landuse=village_green 
An open area of grass in the centre of an English village.

as an programmer my first bolean thoughts where 
so this tag can only be used if it is an english village, so if it is in an 
english town or Danish village you cant use is , and also just if it is in the 
center


 

From: Steve Bennett 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:09 AM
To: Open Street Map mailing list 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page


  I think I might write up some cross-cutting wiki pages like "vegetation", 
pointing people in the right directions for the subtle distinctions between 
natural= and landuse= etc.



Ok, I did it.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Lots of common bush/tree words link there.

Steve 








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Re: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Mike Harris]

Excellent start to a useful bit of disambiguation. Thanks.
 
Mike Harris
 


  _  

From: Steve Bennett [mailto:stevag...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 02 December 2009 01:10
To: Open Street Map mailing list
Subject: [OSM-talk] Vegetation page



I think I might write up some cross-cutting wiki pages like "vegetation",
pointing people in the right directions for the subtle distinctions between
natural= and landuse= etc.




Ok, I did it.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Lots of common bush/tree words link there.

Steve 



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[OSM-talk] Vegetation page

[Steve Bennett]

>
> I think I might write up some cross-cutting wiki pages like "vegetation",
> pointing people in the right directions for the subtle distinctions between
> natural= and landuse= etc.
>
>
Ok, I did it.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Lots of common bush/tree words link there.

Steve
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