Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On 2012-03-22 09:47, Janko Mihelić wrote: 2012/3/21 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com [2] Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl [1] wrote: So why would it be incorrect to map these as pedestrian? The fact that motorvehicles don't use them has nothing to do with it. Maarten Yes, the definition of highway used in OSM covers more than just motor-vehicle routes. Ok, so whats the difference between a pedestrian highway and a footpath then? It says where wide expanses of hard surface are provided, what is the width that separates them? It's difficult to make a precise definition of course. Some ideas of mine: No hard surface: footpath No houses next to it: footpath High use: pedestrian Urban area: pedestrian The wide expanse is in the sense of a (town) square or a pedestrian area. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
2012/3/22 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl It's difficult to make a precise definition of course. Some ideas of mine: No hard surface: footpath No houses next to it: footpath High use: pedestrian Urban area: pedestrian The wide expanse is in the sense of a (town) square or a pedestrian area. Maarten Then we should delete the next line from the wiki: For small paths which are too small for cars to pass (no real streets) use highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=footwayhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootwayinstead. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On 2012-03-22 10:11, Janko Mihelić wrote: 2012/3/22 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl [1] It's difficult to make a precise definition of course. Some ideas of mine: No hard surface: footpath No houses next to it: footpath High use: pedestrian Urban area: pedestrian The wide expanse is in the sense of a (town) square or a pedestrian area. Maarten Then we should delete the next line from the wiki: For small paths which are too small for cars to pass (no real streets) use highway [2]=footway [3] instead. I agree. I would not use that as as single guideline to use highway=footway. In Barcelona I encountered this street: http://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=41.380584,2.181439spn=0.000779,0.001894t=mz=19layer=ccbll=41.380584,2.181439panoid=Z5Al9C_PiNq_MeNrDM36dwcbp=12,300.97,,0,-0.64 In OSM it is a highway=pedestrian: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.380561lon=2.181011zoom=18layers=M I would not map this as a footway. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
2012/3/22 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl In Barcelona I encountered this street: http://maps.google.nl/maps?**ll=41.380584,2.181439spn=0.** 000779,0.001894t=mz=19**layer=ccbll=41.380584,2.** 181439panoid=Z5Al9C_PiNq_**MeNrDM36dwcbp=12,300.97,,0,-**0.64http://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=41.380584,2.181439spn=0.000779,0.001894t=mz=19layer=ccbll=41.380584,2.181439panoid=Z5Al9C_PiNq_MeNrDM36dwcbp=12,300.97,,0,-0.64 In OSM it is a highway=pedestrian: http://www.openstreetmap.org/** ?lat=41.380561lon=2.181011**zoom=18layers=Mhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.380561lon=2.181011zoom=18layers=M I would not map this as a footway. Why not? Why do people in cities hate footways? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On 3/22/2012 4:47 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote: Ok, so whats the difference between a pedestrian highway and a footpath then? I'm sure everyone has different criteria, but I generally use footway if it's not a separate right-of-way (meaning it's either a path in a larger property such as a park, or a sidewalk). highway=pedestrian to me is something that looks like a street (or a 'mini-street'). One problem is that this covers both 'normal' streets and alleys, which are tagged differently when open to cars. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: I agree. I would not use that as as single guideline to use highway=footway. In Barcelona I encountered this street: http://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=41.380584,2.181439spn=0.000779,0.001894t=mz=19layer=ccbll=41.380584,2.181439panoid=Z5Al9C_PiNq_MeNrDM36dwcbp=12,300.97,,0,-0.64 In Paris and other french cities, we tag such narrowed passage as highway=footway or highway=path but surely not as highway=pedestrian. But this discussion might continue on the tagging mailing list. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
2012/3/22 Pieren pier...@gmail.com But this discussion might continue on the tagging mailing list. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the list. Going there right now. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Le jeudi 22 mars 2012 à 10:44 +0100, Janko Mihelić a écrit : 2012/3/22 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl In Barcelona I encountered this street: http://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=41.380584,2.181439spn=0.000779,0.001894t=mz=19layer=ccbll=41.380584,2.181439panoid=Z5Al9C_PiNq_MeNrDM36dwcbp=12,300.97,,0,-0.64 In OSM it is a highway=pedestrian: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.380561lon=2.181011zoom=18layers=M I would not map this as a footway. Why not? Why do people in cities hate footways? I understand your position and I somehow agree with you: the usage of pedestrian/footway/path is not clearly defined at all. It took me a long time to make sense of these values and I'm aware that other contributors use it in a (slightly) different manner. A contributor may describe a way as footway while another would describe the same way as pedestrian and there is no rule to decide who is wrong and who is right... So, there is no clear definition, agreed. However, in the maps linked from your original post, I can see a few highway=footway. This basically means that local contributors did make a difference between pedestrian streets and footways. I also feel like there is a difference between pedestrian and footway. I can't state any clear rule but I usually use 3 values (pedestrian, footway, path) depending on the context (dense urban, residential or rural? paved? wide? commercial/business area? low traffic?). I tend to use very few footways, I'm not sure why. Maybe because our cities are mostly crowded with cars and ways are usually wide and paved. Maybe because urban planners tend to eradicate the ways that fit in my perception of a footway. Maybe this perception is the result of a cultural heritage (I live in an old Mediterranean city). The sole thing that I can say for sure is that I don't hate footways :) It is just that I don't often meet such ways (according to my own perception, again). Finally, the debate is more about replacing or not some imperfect tags. Keep in mind that tags have emerged from the community and are usually the result of a consensus. Should we replace it with a well-thought tag set? Will it be accepted by the community? No-one can tell. If you feel like this must be improved, try to make a better proposal, see how contributors will discuss it, see if it gets voted and finally used. I think it would be a relevant debate but I remain doubtful about the issue. Good luck :) -- Gilles Bassière - Web/GIS software engineer http://gbassiere.free.fr/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On 2012-03-21 at 17:35:28 +0100, Janko Mihelić wrote: Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Some of those look like potential pedestrian to me: the main criterion I use is not whether cars have ever used the way but whether cars could use them if they were legally allowed to do so (and often they are in some restricted case, such as emergency veicles and other rare exceptions). It is not easy to judge from a quick look at the pics, but at least in some cases I believe that a city car, driven by a local who knows that the road isn't getting smaller, could use that street. In the case of Venice I believe it could be useful to contact the local mappers; since their situation is quite different from most other cities they may have a slighty different usage. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
2012/3/23 Elena ``of Valhalla'' elena.valha...@gmail.com On 2012-03-21 at 17:35:28 +0100, Janko Mihelić wrote: Some of those look like potential pedestrian to me: the main criterion I use is not whether cars have ever used the way but whether cars could use them if they were legally allowed to do so (and often they are in some restricted case, such as emergency veicles and other rare exceptions). I would gladly take this as a rule for pedestrian streets. And it would be usefull to know where an ambulance could come if it was an emergency. At the moment every mapper has his own rule because the description in the wiki is too ambiguous. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 6:14 PM, sabas88 saba...@gmail.com wrote: ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them E perché una strada è pedonale solo se ha avuto traffico veicolare nella sua storia? Dal wiki di highway=pedestrian: For town centres and civic areas, where wide expanses of hard surface are provided for pedestrians to walk (often between shops). Mi sembra un ragionamento anti-storico: le vie nascono pedonali ed eventualmente diventano veicolari, non il contrario... Ciao, Federico ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have street in their name, and so a mapper thinks a footpath cannot be a street. Some examples of towns and photos of ways that are tagged as pedestrian highways: Venice: map http://osm.org/go/0IDhdnwp - photohttp://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/28533234.jpg San Giminagno: map http://osm.org/go/xXvzjCybS-- photohttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/4995821062_6b0204a1fe.jpg Split: map http://osm.org/go/xdveAYOup-- - photohttp://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w450/nekretnine/poslovni-prostor-split-centar-dioklecijanova-palaca-slika-1030138.jpg Budva: map http://osm.org/go/xfIsIyMSI-- - photohttp://shrani.si/f/3d/fD/38wbAo6l/budva-ulice.jpg Dubrovnik: map http://osm.org/go/xfDsEN8zg-- - photohttp://www.hrvatskainfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/dubrovnik_ulica.jpg Valencia: map http://osm.org/go/b_qOmjQ5-- - photohttp://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/56711091.jpg First question is, do you agree that these streets are footpaths, or only some, or do they really fit the definition of a pedestrian highway? Maybe we should invent a new tag? If you think those are footpaths, should we forcefully change them or is there a better tactic? Have you had discussions about this topic, what was the conclusion? Thanks, Janko Mihelić ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Janko Mihelic' wrote: Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. Venice: map http://osm.org/go/0IDhdnwp - photo http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/28533234.jpg San Giminagno:map http://osm.org/go/xXvzjCybS-- photo http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/4995821062_6b0204a1fe.jpg Split: map http://osm.org/go/xdveAYOup-- - photo http://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w450/nekretnine/poslovni-prostor-split-centar-dioklecijanova-palaca-slika-1030138.jpg Budva: map http://osm.org/go/xfIsIyMSI-- - photo http://shrani.si/f/3d/fD/38wbAo6l/budva-ulice.jpg Dubrovnik: map http://osm.org/go/xfDsEN8zg-- - photo http://www.hrvatskainfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/dubrovnik_ulica.jpg Valencia: map http://osm.org/go/b_qOmjQ5-- - photo http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/56711091.jpg (my 2p) Most of those look too wide to be footpaths to me. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
On 21-3-2012 17:35, Janko Mihelić wrote: Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have street From the map_features wiki page: highway=pedestrian: For roads used mainly/exclusively for pedestrians/shopping areas. Also for tagging squares and plazas So why would it be incorrect to map these as pedestrian? The fact that motorvehicles don't use them has nothing to do with it. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 21-3-2012 17:35, Janko Mihelić wrote: Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have street From the map_features wiki page: highway=pedestrian: For roads used mainly/exclusively for pedestrians/shopping areas. Also for tagging squares and plazas So why would it be incorrect to map these as pedestrian? The fact that motorvehicles don't use them has nothing to do with it. Maarten Yes, the definition of highway used in OSM covers more than just motor-vehicle routes. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Questa email riesuma quel discorso di un paio di mesi fa. Come si era risolta la situazione a venezia? Stefano -- Forwarded message -- From: Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com Date: 2012/3/21 Subject: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns. To: Talk Openstreetmap t...@openstreetmap.org Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have street in their name, and so a mapper thinks a footpath cannot be a street. Some examples of towns and photos of ways that are tagged as pedestrian highways: Venice: map http://osm.org/go/0IDhdnwp - photohttp://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/28533234.jpg San Giminagno: map http://osm.org/go/xXvzjCybS-- photohttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/4995821062_6b0204a1fe.jpg Split: map http://osm.org/go/xdveAYOup-- - photohttp://www.njuskalo.hr/image-w450/nekretnine/poslovni-prostor-split-centar-dioklecijanova-palaca-slika-1030138.jpg Budva: map http://osm.org/go/xfIsIyMSI-- - photohttp://shrani.si/f/3d/fD/38wbAo6l/budva-ulice.jpg Dubrovnik: map http://osm.org/go/xfDsEN8zg-- - photohttp://www.hrvatskainfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/dubrovnik_ulica.jpg Valencia: map http://osm.org/go/b_qOmjQ5-- - photohttp://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/56711091.jpg First question is, do you agree that these streets are footpaths, or only some, or do they really fit the definition of a pedestrian highway? Maybe we should invent a new tag? If you think those are footpaths, should we forcefully change them or is there a better tactic? Have you had discussions about this topic, what was the conclusion? Thanks, Janko Mihelić ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.
Se ben ricordo non c'era consenso. Io dicevo che secondo me la differenza la faceva l'ampiezza della strada. Quindi, per esempio, la prima foto di Venezia per me è una pedestrian; quella di san giminiano invece potrebbe essere una footway. Ciao, Andrea. On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 6:14 PM, sabas88 saba...@gmail.com wrote: Questa email riesuma quel discorso di un paio di mesi fa. Come si era risolta la situazione a venezia? Stefano -- Forwarded message -- From: Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com Date: 2012/3/21 Subject: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns. To: Talk Openstreetmap t...@openstreetmap.org Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian highways although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small delivery vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have street in their name, and so a mapper thinks a footpath cannot be a street. Some examples of towns and photos of ways that are tagged as pedestrian highways: Venice: map - photo San Giminagno: map - photo Split: map - photo Budva: map - photo Dubrovnik: map - photo Valencia: map - photo First question is, do you agree that these streets are footpaths, or only some, or do they really fit the definition of a pedestrian highway? Maybe we should invent a new tag? If you think those are footpaths, should we forcefully change them or is there a better tactic? Have you had discussions about this topic, what was the conclusion? Thanks, Janko Mihelić ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
