Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 12 February 2015 at 13:55, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: The comments were saying that vandalism is rare on OSM Wikipedia sensibly offers this advice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose Yet: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/295522 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
After having looked at a few @osmthis notes, my conclusion is that it rarely helps: the location of the note is not precise enough, and the photo cannot help with finding the poi location. Should use photo + manual location. Still wondering about this « presume good faith » thing. If every note should be resurveyed on the ground, why not just replace the creator text with « please come survey here » ? And then, just randomly create them around everywhere, just to encourage mappers get out ? Sure, you got someone give an example of two bad faith notes in France, out of 21000 created, 19000 closed ? Are the statistics really worse than that of vandalism ? JB. Le 12.02.2015 19:38, Pierre Béland a écrit : We have to think of OSM as a global community where not all countires are equal with access to internet and computers. Often, people have smartphones and could contribute. Adding a note with photo would greatly help. The @osmthis Twitter tag let's do this. But it is uneasy then to communicate with these persons.adding @osmthis. The same functionality in OSM would be fantastic. But with anonymous notes, we cannot contact these people and obtain clarification. Then the risk that notes stay open for a long period since incompleted. Pierre - DE : Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl À : talk@openstreetmap.org ENVOYÉ LE : Jeudi 12 février 2015 12h43 OBJET : Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism in OSM? On 2015-02-12 18:23, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? I'm just saying that a note is not good enough as a single source for contribution. Especially when it is easy to verify like in the two reported examples (a bank and a bakery). And in case of doubt, you just leave the note open for others instead of compulsive close notes contributions. I agree. Especially new notes, just wait a while until someone who maybe has local knowledge picks it up. Another thought: give the possibility to add photo's to notes. That way you have more confirmation that there is something. You still don't know if it is there unless there are GPS coordinates in the picture, but it's something. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [1] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
Hi JB You are probably from a northern and developped country like me. But the reality is not the same everywhere. There was a discussion on the OSM Mali list today. People where discussing if it would be possible to meet this weekend with the electric planified shoutage. Plus it is not everybody that has access to a computer and internet. Go in the field? I mapped in the last few days in the northern part of Quebec, Canada (innuit territory). I was lucky to find imagery at some places. Our challenge is to innovate and let others participate differently. Nothing is perfect in our OSM world. We just try to find ways to move forward and let people participate in different ways. About come and survey? For the Haiyan Activation, people in the field added notes describing infrastructures. Badly these were anonymous notes and I could not contact them for more info. I replied to it and wait for an answer. After a year, somebody responded to me recently and corrected the map. This is a workflow to build. For anonymous notes, if there are too many, there could be a policy to remove them after a certain period of time. regard Pierre De : JB jb...@mailoo.org À : talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Vendredi 13 février 2015 9h50 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM? After having looked at a few @osmthis notes, my conclusion is that it rarely helps: the location of the note is not precise enough, and the photo cannot help with finding the poi location. Should use photo + manual location.Still wondering about this « presume good faith » thing. If every note should be resurveyed on the ground, why not just replace the creator text with « please come survey here » ? And then, just randomly create them around everywhere, just to encourage mappers get out ?Sure, you got someone give an example of two bad faith notes in France, out of 21000 created, 19000 closed ? Are the statistics really worse than that of vandalism ?JB. Le 12.02.2015 19:38, Pierre Béland a écrit : We have to think of OSM as a global community where not all countires are equal with access to internet and computers. Often, people have smartphones and could contribute. Adding a note with photo would greatly help. The @osmthis Twitter tag let's do this. But it is uneasy then to communicate with these persons.adding @osmthis. The same functionality in OSM would be fantastic. But with anonymous notes, we cannot contact these people and obtain clarification. Then the risk that notes stay open for a long period since incompleted. Pierre De : Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl À : talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Jeudi 12 février 2015 12h43 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism in OSM? On 2015-02-12 18:23, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? I'm just saying that a note is not good enough as a single source for contribution. Especially when it is easy to verify like in the two reported examples (a bank and a bakery). And in case of doubt, you just leave the note open for others instead of compulsive close notes contributions. I agree. Especially new notes, just wait a while until someone who maybe has local knowledge picks it up. Another thought: give the possibility to add photo's to notes. That way you have more confirmation that there is something. You still don't know if it is there unless there are GPS coordinates in the picture, but it's something. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 12 February 2015 at 13:55, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: The comments were saying that vandalism is rare on OSM Wikipedia sensibly offers this advice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:50 PM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Still wondering about this « presume good faith » thing. If every note should be resurveyed on the ground, why not just replace the creator text with « please come survey here » ? I'm not saying it has to be necessarily resurveyed on the ground. The information can be verified first by other sources. For the two examples, the bank and the bakery, it' easy to go on the bank web site and check if the branch exists in that town. And for the bakery, you can check if google - for instance - indexed any local press article or website talking about this shop. A no-result should raise an internal alarm and a comment on the note (like plz someone to survey on the ground because I find nothing about this bakery in the web). Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
We have to think of OSM as a global community where not all countires are equal with access to internet and computers. Often, people have smartphones and could contribute. Adding a note with photo would greatly help. The @osmthis Twitter tag let's do this. But it is uneasy then to communicate with these persons.adding @osmthis. The same functionality in OSM would be fantastic. But with anonymous notes, we cannot contact these people and obtain clarification. Then the risk that notes stay open for a long period since incompleted. Pierre De : Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl À : talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Jeudi 12 février 2015 12h43 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM? On 2015-02-12 18:23, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? I'm just saying that a note is not good enough as a single source for contribution. Especially when it is easy to verify like in the two reported examples (a bank and a bakery). And in case of doubt, you just leave the note open for others instead of compulsive close notes contributions. I agree. Especially new notes, just wait a while until someone who maybe has local knowledge picks it up. Another thought: give the possibility to add photo's to notes. That way you have more confirmation that there is something. You still don't know if it is there unless there are GPS coordinates in the picture, but it's something. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
Hi http://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/2388 Under 'Community' there a bullet point titled guide to vandalism” in OSM? As my French is very poor, could someone translate expand on the process. Why is false POI being added to notes? It seems similar to entrapment from what is written. Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 12/02/2015 13:32, Dave F. wrote: Thanks to both for the clarification. The way it was written it implied bona fide editors were deliberately adding false POIs to catch vandals. I translated that bit; I added quotes to the German original and changed the payoff to try and make it obvious that no, these people weren't seriously writing a how to vandalise OSM guide*, but clearly I didn't do a good enough job :-) . I'm sure that the openstreetmap.de folks would welcome more translation volunteers, though. Actually, one thing that I just didn't think about doing was linking to a translation of the French forum as well as the original, since (depending on what browser you're using) automatic translation either just happens or is immediately accessible by Google Translate / Microsoft Translator or whatever - and with French/English both do a more than passable job. I'll bear that in mind for the future ... Cheers, Andy * There's actually been a bit of previous in the French OSM community about the use of notes, which has on occasion spilled over onto international lists. However, trying to provide any background about that would be way out of scope for a one-line bullet-point item in a weekly newsletter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
I happen to fix a lot of notes in Poland. For me it would be impractical to check every POI that I add from notes. Mind you, I do the research in the Internet if it's a feature that could possibly have a website (fire station, church, restaurant, supermarket etc), but the only way to check some (eg. smaller shops) would be to check on the ground. Unless there's a mapper in every single municipality it's not practical to do so - drive a long way to just check yep, it's there. Therefore sometimes I simply assume good faith which in my opinion *is* sensible. But I mark any changesets or POIs with source=notes. Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
FYI, after reading this thread in the forum, I sent a message to the registred user who converted the notes into POIs in OSM that he should always verify first from a 2nd source what is reported by the note, whatever the author is anonymous or not. The argument about most of the notes are correct is not good enough. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
No evidence. The comments were saying that vandalism is rare on OSM, that the majority of the notes (and the mapping) is done in good faith, that a small number of POIs added this way does not have a large impact, etc. regards p.s. I hope that I understood all comments correctly, French is not my mother tongue. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 12/02/2015 13:37, Marc Gemis wrote: The author was not describing the mappers as vandals, but he was pointing to the people that create such notes in the hope some lazy mappers would create non-existing POIs or make other changes that do not correspond to the reality. Has he given evidence of this happening deliberately? Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 2015-02-12 13:13, Dave F. wrote: Hi http://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/2388 Under 'Community' there a bullet point titled guide to vandalism” in OSM? As my French is very poor, could someone translate expand on the process. Why is false POI being added to notes? It seems similar to entrapment from what is written. The post on the french forum is an expanded version of what is in the weekly OSM: as an anonymous user you can add a note to the map and a registered user converts that to something in OSM. The point of the matter is: when mapping an anonymous note, only do so if you have verified the correctness of it. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
Thanks to both for the clarification. The way it was written it implied bona fide editors were deliberately adding false POIs to catch vandals. Now that I understand, I'm not sure they should be considered vandals. There appears to be no malice, just incompetence laziness. Dave F. On 12/02/2015 12:45, Marc Gemis wrote: As far as I see it: The author says that it is pretty easy to vandalise OSM data, even without creating an account. You just have to make a note with some fake information and wait until an armchair mapper picks up the note, does no verification on the ground and adds the POI. He shows 2 notes that he created to proof his point. He just tries to warn other mappers not to follow the text in the notes without verifying it on the ground. regards m On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hi http://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/2388 Under 'Community' there a bullet point titled guide to vandalism” in OSM? As my French is very poor, could someone translate expand on the process. Why is false POI being added to notes? It seems similar to entrapment from what is written. Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 12/02/2015 13:37, Marc Gemis wrote: The author was not describing the mappers as vandals, but he was pointing to the people that create such notes in the hope some lazy mappers would create non-existing POIs or make other changes that do not correspond to the reality. Has he given evidence of this happening deliberately? Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
As far as I see it: The author says that it is pretty easy to vandalise OSM data, even without creating an account. You just have to make a note with some fake information and wait until an armchair mapper picks up the note, does no verification on the ground and adds the POI. He shows 2 notes that he created to proof his point. He just tries to warn other mappers not to follow the text in the notes without verifying it on the ground. regards m On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hi http://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/2388 Under 'Community' there a bullet point titled guide to vandalism” in OSM? As my French is very poor, could someone translate expand on the process. Why is false POI being added to notes? It seems similar to entrapment from what is written. Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
+1. Quite funny actually that the parallel discussion on « how we map » clearly states : In talking to other mappers, always ASSUME GOOD INTENTIONS. and drew no bad attention, but does not seems to be accepted for the notes mappers (meaning creators, as in « I don't know to map, adding a note is here for me »). Do that mean that anonymous notes should just not be allowed ? (TLDR: also quite funny that on the discussion on importing the bicycle_repair_station on talk and import, the note db could be imported into with little regard to quality, but not the main one. Still wondering if this note db is just considered a shitty one somewhere that no one wants to see.) Le 12.02.2015 15:46, Michał Brzozowski a écrit : I happen to fix a lot of notes in Poland. For me it would be impractical to check every POI that I add from notes. Mind you, I do the research in the Internet if it's a feature that could possibly have a website (fire station, church, restaurant, supermarket etc), but the only way to check some (eg. smaller shops) would be to check on the ground. Unless there's a mapper in every single municipality it's not practical to do so - drive a long way to just check yep, it's there. Therefore sometimes I simply assume good faith which in my opinion *is* sensible. But I mark any changesets or POIs with source=notes. Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
Am 12.02.2015 um 15:46 schrieb Michał Brzozowski: I happen to fix a lot of notes in Poland. For me it would be impractical to check every POI that I add from notes. Mind you, I do the research in the Internet if it's a feature that could possibly have a website (fire station, church, restaurant, supermarket etc), but the only way to check some (eg. smaller shops) would be to check on the ground. Unless there's a mapper in every single municipality it's not practical to do so - drive a long way to just check yep, it's there. Therefore sometimes I simply assume good faith which in my opinion *is* sensible. But I mark any changesets or POIs with source=notes. +1 I often test the reaction by asking a question about additional tags. I even got some anonymous reporter to learn about the needed information like surface, lit, sidewalk, maxspeed, opening_hours, building, brand and cuisine. Not sure if they are that anonymous anymore but the seem to strain from creating an account. cu colliar 0xE8F56581.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
I think the person who added these fake notes misses the point in how OSM actually works. Wouldn't be for the trust and assumption of good faith, there would be no OSM! @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? You seem to overgeneralize, can someone prove that outsiders (ie. *not* people who do this to bait mappers) really add so much fake notes that we should not trust them? Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: Therefore sometimes I simply assume good faith which in my opinion *is* sensible. That's where I disagree. If some registred user creates fake POI's directly, he should be banned (first temporarily, with warnings etc) once we notice the vandalism. The same rule should apply for registred users copying easter eggs based on copyrighted maps or fake POI's based on notes. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 2/12/2015 6:46 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: I happen to fix a lot of notes in Poland. For me it would be impractical to check every POI that I add from notes. It's for this reason that notes say This note includes comments from anonymous users which should be independently verified. This is an important requirement. An anonymous note can call your attention to something that needs to be fixed, but the actual fix needs to be able to be made without reference to the note. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? I'm just saying that a note is not good enough as a single source for contribution. Especially when it is easy to verify like in the two reported examples (a bank and a bakery). And in case of doubt, you just leave the note open for others instead of compulsive close notes contributions. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] guide to vandalism” in OSM?
On 2015-02-12 18:23, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: @Pieren: You switch topics so easily that I'm not sure what are you talking about precisely. Is your stance Someone showed that it is easy to add fake notes, therefore we must assume that every single POI added from notes is fake unless we prove it 100%? I'm just saying that a note is not good enough as a single source for contribution. Especially when it is easy to verify like in the two reported examples (a bank and a bakery). And in case of doubt, you just leave the note open for others instead of compulsive close notes contributions. I agree. Especially new notes, just wait a while until someone who maybe has local knowledge picks it up. Another thought: give the possibility to add photo's to notes. That way you have more confirmation that there is something. You still don't know if it is there unless there are GPS coordinates in the picture, but it's something. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
