Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[Christoph Eckert]

Hi,

> > Are you referring to the JOSM presets? As for some reason the only
> > values they include for surface are paved / unpaved / cobblestone.
> >
> > If so, I would agree would that there should be some more options
> > available, at least some of the common values, eg gravel, dirt, grass,
> > concrete
>
> Yes, that is exactly what i am referring too.

please open a JOSM ticket.

-- 
Beste Grüße,
Best regards,

ce

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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Renaud MICHEL]

Le vendredi 14 août 2009 à 15:02, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>  but IMHO it is an error in the editors not to warn
> you, if tags are added in a combine-action (not only on contradictory
> tags should warn). I already filed a trac-ticket for JOSM some time
> ago.

+1
I've had the problem some month ago (in Namur, Belgium) that someone had 
joined many way making one long railway that was both a tunnel and a bridge. 
I had a hard time splitting it again at the correct nodes (I was lucky that 
at the time mapnik didn't update so frequently and I was able to look where 
the bridges/tunnels were)

potlatch should also have such a warning, as beginners generally start with 
potlatch and are more likely to make such a mistake.
(If it already does ignore this comment, I rarely use potlatch)

-- 
Renaud Michel


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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/8/14 Florian Lohoff :
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 12:31:38AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> type of ways - I see a lot of bloat coming when people start tagging
>
>
>        access = yes
>        bicycle = yes
>        foot = yes
>        layer = 0
>        maxspeed = 30
>        motorcar = yes
>        motorcycle = yes
>        surface = paved
>        lit = no
>
> And yes - this happends and it happens more and more ... These should
> more or less all be default and a validator should.
>
> I see the problem that there are other regions of the world where
> a paved road is an exception e.g. Madagaskar (CIA Factbook):
>
>        total: 65,663 km
>        paved: 7,617 km
>        unpaved: 58,046 km (2003)
>
> But than make the most common usage the default

+1
Usage implying the state of the maps as of now, or the (expected) end result?

> - this will save gigabytes of storage once we have the World Domination ...

+1
(it's been some time I heard Germans talking about World Domination
;-) - sorry- couldn't resist). Actually looking at the total of road
kilometres in the whole world, I wouldn't be too sure that paved is
the default (in the so far mapped OSM-World it definitely is). For
motorways the situation should be more clear even worldwide.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/8/14 Blaž Lorger :
> I usually tag paved road segment adjacent to unpaved road segment as paved.
> Otherwise it is all too easy to combine road segments without any warning from
> editor.

I often do the same, if I got the impression that it is not completely
clear from the contest (on tracks, on small streets adjacent to
unpaved ones, ...), but IMHO it is an error in the editors not to warn
you, if tags are added in a combine-action (not only on contradictory
tags should warn). I already filed a trac-ticket for JOSM some time
ago.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Blaž Lorger]

On Friday 14 August 2009 00:31:38 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2009/8/13 Sam Vekemans :
> > surface earth Probably the same as surface=ground
> > should be change to the same as surface=dirt
>
> yes, clean up a little bit: dirt, mud, earth, ground seem all the same
> to me (I personally prefer ground).
>
> > ... and it is NOT assumed surface=paved. .. we don't ASSUME :)  ..
> > instead we have "If no other values of surface is listed, the default
> > value is "surface=paved" ... but actually, it should be
> > "surface=undefined", as the default value if none are listed.
>
> no, I think for roads we always had the default: "paved" and I would
> stick to this and tag the exceptions.

I usually tag paved road segment adjacent to unpaved road segment as paved. 
Otherwise it is all too easy to combine road segments without any warning from 
editor.


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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 12:31:38AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > ... and it is NOT assumed surface=paved. .. we don't ASSUME :)  .. instead
> > we have "If no other values of surface is listed, the default value is
> > "surface=paved" ... but actually, it should be "surface=undefined", as the
> > default value if none are listed.
> 
> no, I think for roads we always had the default: "paved" and I would
> stick to this and tag the exceptions.

We should have sensible default for most of the tags on highway
type of ways - I see a lot of bloat coming when people start tagging


access = yes
bicycle = yes
foot = yes
layer = 0
maxspeed = 30
motorcar = yes
motorcycle = yes
surface = paved
lit = no

And yes - this happends and it happens more and more ... These should
more or less all be default and a validator should.

I see the problem that there are other regions of the world where
a paved road is an exception e.g. Madagaskar (CIA Factbook):

total: 65,663 km
paved: 7,617 km
unpaved: 58,046 km (2003)

But than make the most common usage the default - this will save gigabytes
of storage once we have the World Domination ...

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org
"Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen."
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/8/13 Sam Vekemans :
> surface earth Probably the same as surface=ground
> should be change to the same as surface=dirt

yes, clean up a little bit: dirt, mud, earth, ground seem all the same
to me (I personally prefer ground).

> ... and it is NOT assumed surface=paved. .. we don't ASSUME :)  .. instead
> we have "If no other values of surface is listed, the default value is
> "surface=paved" ... but actually, it should be "surface=undefined", as the
> default value if none are listed.

no, I think for roads we always had the default: "paved" and I would
stick to this and tag the exceptions.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Sam Vekemans]

So...
 "gravel" is already defined in the discussion page.. we can copy that over.

and "loose_gravel" and "compacted_gravel" also have clearly defined
definitions... can be copied over.  these are 2 sub-types of gravel...
alternatively tagged "surface=gravel"; "gravel:type=loose"
"gravel:type=compact"

the definition of 'dirt' refers primarily to "soil that is on the ground".
we can add that in the box. (and 'earth' is another term for 'soil')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt

*surface*  
earth
[image:
Image:Mf_way.png]  [image:
Image:Mf_area.png]
 Probably
the same as surface=ground
should be change to the same as surface=dirt

the current tag list in the chart of 'map features is not adequate.
surface  paved / unpaved /
asphalt / concrete / paving_stones / cobblestone / metal / wood /
grass_paver / gravel / pebblestone / grass / ground / earth / dirt / mud /
sand / ice_road [image:
way] Apply
to all types of highways. If the tag is not present, it is assumed
surface
=paved,
excepted for highway =
footway  and
highway 
=track.
(sealed/unsealed outside UK).


it needs to be broken down into it's own category above that all the other
main tags have, by actually showing the surface as 18 rows, is a lot
smarter. :)
... and it is NOT assumed surface=paved. .. we don't ASSUME :)  .. instead
we have "If no other values of surface is listed, the default value is
"surface=paved" ... but actually, it should be "surface=undefined", as the
default value if none are listed.

I think using the simple definition from wikipedia or wikitionary for each
of the missing definitions should be fine.

Anyway, i don't know how to add in more rows with a new sub section.

I have not no heard any objections to this yet. So it would be great to see
this moved forward.

Cheers,
Sam

Twitter: @Acrosscanada
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans


On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Courtland Yockey <
courtland.yoc...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Thread: Sam Vekemans (12/08/2009) > Craig Wallace (12/08/2009) > Sam
> Vekemans (12/08/2009)
>
> Regarding excerpt:
>
> > Yes, that is exactly what i am referring too.
> > We ALSO need to have a special wiki page (that lists each of these
> things,
> > and how they are rendered, and used.   This will alleviate the problem.
> > Since these 3 or 6 other values are common, it should be easy to make
> pages
> > for each of them and put 'status=in use'.
> >
> > Having these values (this goes with many other 'values') listed as just a
> > short description on a chart is not good enough.  Each value needs to be
> > properly defined, with rendering examples and pictures.   Otherwise, we
> can
> > continue talking about air, until the mars rovers stop working.
> >
>
> New content:
> A starting point would be to properly populate the table at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface rather than starting a new
> set of Wiki pages right off.  Thereafter, this page could be whittled down
> to a navigational aid to detailed treatments of particular values as
> needed.
> --ceyocke
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete; dirt; grass

[Courtland Yockey]

Thread: Sam Vekemans (12/08/2009) > Craig Wallace (12/08/2009) > Sam
Vekemans (12/08/2009)

Regarding excerpt:

> Yes, that is exactly what i am referring too.
> We ALSO need to have a special wiki page (that lists each of these things,
> and how they are rendered, and used.   This will alleviate the problem.
> Since these 3 or 6 other values are common, it should be easy to make
pages
> for each of them and put 'status=in use'.
>
> Having these values (this goes with many other 'values') listed as just a
> short description on a chart is not good enough.  Each value needs to be
> properly defined, with rendering examples and pictures.   Otherwise, we
can
> continue talking about air, until the mars rovers stop working.
>

New content:
A starting point would be to properly populate the table at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface rather than starting a new
set of Wiki pages right off.  Thereafter, this page could be whittled down
to a navigational aid to detailed treatments of particular values as needed.
--ceyocke


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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[Sam Vekemans]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Craig Wallace  wrote:

> On 12/08/2009 01:41, Sam Vekemans wrote:
> > This is where my national headache begins. (surface=smoothISH)
> >
> > If we simply have the default options to list 'gravel' 'dirt'
> > 'concrete', because 'unpaved' is rather ill-defined. It just indicates
> > 'paved_ash_fault=no', but doesn't go further.
> > 'cobblestone' is listed, which is great, as it describes what material
> > is used to permit whatever type of motion.
> Are you referring to the JOSM presets? As for some reason the only
> values they include for surface are paved / unpaved / cobblestone.
>
> If so, I would agree would that there should be some more options
> available, at least some of the common values, eg gravel, dirt, grass,
> concrete
>

Yes, that is exactly what i am referring too.
We ALSO need to have a special wiki page (that lists each of these things,
and how they are rendered, and used.   This will alleviate the problem.
Since these 3 or 6 other values are common, it should be easy to make pages
for each of them and put 'status=in use'.

Having these values (this goes with many other 'values') listed as just a
short description on a chart is not good enough.  Each value needs to be
properly defined, with rendering examples and pictures.   Otherwise, we can
continue talking about air, until the mars rovers stop working.


Cheers,
Sam


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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[Craig Wallace]

On 12/08/2009 01:41, Sam Vekemans wrote:
> This is where my national headache begins. (surface=smoothISH)
>
> If we simply have the default options to list 'gravel' 'dirt'
> 'concrete', because 'unpaved' is rather ill-defined. It just indicates
> 'paved_ash_fault=no', but doesn't go further.
> 'cobblestone' is listed, which is great, as it describes what material
> is used to permit whatever type of motion.
Are you referring to the JOSM presets? As for some reason the only 
values they include for surface are paved / unpaved / cobblestone.

If so, I would agree would that there should be some more options 
available, at least some of the common values, eg gravel, dirt, grass, 
concrete

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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[Alex Mauer]

On 08/11/2009 07:41 PM, Sam Vekemans wrote:
> So anyway, i propose to add surface=gravel;dirt;grass;concrete, to go
> along side highway=value. (which listed more generally, what the way
> is generally used for (type of travel between 2 points)

We already have those values, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface -- or am I missing something?

-Alex Mauer "hawke"



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Re: [OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[John Smith]

--- On Tue, 11/8/09, Sam Vekemans  wrote:
> So anyway, i propose to add
> surface=gravel;dirt;grass;concrete, to go
> along side highway=value. (which listed more generally,
> what the way
> is generally used for (type of travel between 2 points)

Umm someone already has done that?

surface paved / unpaved / asphalt / concrete / paving_stones / 
cobblestone / metal / wood / grass_paver / gravel / pebblestone / grass / 
ground / earth / dirt / mud / sand / ice_road

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Properties


  

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[OSM-talk] tag proposal surface=gravel; concrete: dirt; grass

[Sam Vekemans]

Hi all,
That 90 message thread on highway=path and highway=footway;cycleway
has gone on too long IMO.

Multi-use path; greenway
In Canada we have this multi-use "Greenway" where trails are not
actually designated:use specific, but rather, just listed as a 'path'
with a surface type. Then, we add in routing attributes for each use.

This is where my national headache begins. (surface=smoothISH)

If we simply have the default options to list 'gravel' 'dirt'
'concrete', because 'unpaved' is rather ill-defined. It just indicates
'paved_ash_fault=no', but doesn't go further.
'cobblestone' is listed, which is great, as it describes what material
is used to permit whatever type of motion.

So anyway, i propose to add surface=gravel;dirt;grass;concrete, to go
along side highway=value. (which listed more generally, what the way
is generally used for (type of travel between 2 points)

If no immediate objections, i'll make a wiki page for it.

BTW, i have read most of the messages, but this is based on the OSM
principle of universal logic so that anyone who looks at the map can
understand it.  (And oh ya i like the smoothness sideshow presentation
at SOTM, great work :-)

Cheers,
Sam Vekemans
Across Canada Trails

-- 
Twitter: @Acrosscanada
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans

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