Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/25/2016 05:45 PM, Pine W wrote:
> Perhaps there are parts of the world in which official databases are
> incomplete, outdated, or nonexistent, 

This is true for most official databases in so-called "first-world
countries". The content of official databases should never be considered
superior to an actual survey.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Pine W]

I think you misunderstood my purpose. I was not contacting OSM to complain
about illegal signs. I was responding to the original poster and urging
caution about relying on signs. At least in my jurisdiction, official
databases seem to me to be more reliable than signage regarding property
rights.

Perhaps there are parts of the world in which official databases are
incomplete, outdated, or nonexistent, in which case mappers could adapt to
local conditions as best as possible.

Pine
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-10-25 1:31 GMT+02:00 Pine W :

> Just a comment that I'd be wary of "No hunting", "Hunting allowed", or
> "Private property", or other signs on the ground that can actually be
> placed by anyone, whether or not they are legal.
>


this can be (according to the local situation/context) a problem or not
with any kind of sign, in no way related to hunting. Putting up a sign
"private property" where indeed it is public property, is most likely
illegal in any place. If you come across such illegal signage, contact your
local authorities, don't complain on the OSM mailing list ;-)




> A problem that I've encountered more than once is a private property owner
> putting out what appeared to me to be an illegal sign, like putting a
> home-made speed limit sign on the small street that goes by their house.
>



if it's their driveway, they can probably put any sign and it won't be
"illegal" (if it's enforcable is another question) (depends on the
jurisdiction and context (accessible by everyone or only after passing a
gate etc., public right of way on a privately owned road, etc.)).





> A similar problem that I've heard about is business owners putting out "No
> parking", "Customer parking only", "Private beach", and similar signs which
> were made to look official but actually were not approved by any government
> agency.
>


again, see above, contact your local authorities and have the sign removed
if it is illegal.



> So signage that you see in public is not always trustworthy, and I would
> be cautious about relying on it. Relying on official databases seems to me
> to be preferable to relying on signage.
>



I would rely more on local signage, because this is what you can be
expected to know and see, while some "official database" if it has all the
valid prescriptions in it, but doesn't find an echo in the actual situation
on the ground, will be hardly enforcable. In case you find discrepancies
you should/could contact local authorities and have the situation cleared.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Warin]

I would use the 'Open Data from official sources' to confirm the 'on the 
ground' public signage. A conflict should lead to further 
investigation/thought.


  On 25-Oct-16 10:45 AM, john whelan wrote:


A very interesting comment, considering the lengths we seem to go to 
to avoid importing Open Data from official sources.


Cheerio John


On 24 Oct 2016 7:35 pm, "Pine W" > wrote:


Just a comment that I'd be wary of "No hunting", "Hunting
allowed", or "Private property", or other signs on the ground that
can actually be placed by anyone, whether or not they are legal. A
problem that I've encountered more than once is a private property
owner putting out what appeared to me to be an illegal sign, like
putting a home-made speed limit sign on the small street that goes
by their house. A similar problem that I've heard about is
business owners putting out "No parking", "Customer parking only",
"Private beach", and similar signs which were made to look
official but actually were not approved by any government agency.
So signage that you see in public is not always trustworthy, and I
would be cautious about relying on it. Relying on official
databases seems to me to be preferable to relying on signage.

Pine

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:



sent from a phone

> Il giorno 24 ott 2016, alle ore 20:22, yvecai
> ha scritto:
>
> Michal,
> You're half right IMO. I don't see such problems if
> 1) tagging is made by hunters
> 2) mapping is made by hunters


I'm not a hunter, but I have encountered a lot of "hunting
forbidden" signs in different places, sometimes every few
meters apparently delimiting an area. While I didn't map them
at the time, I guess I could have done it without having
deeper insights into the hunting business, simply by looking
where the signs were.

What you ask for is desirable, but I would not make it a
requirement. In any field you can provide better mapping if
you know more about the topic, but this hasn't led us to only
ask specialists for their contribution.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[john whelan]

A very interesting comment, considering the lengths we seem to go to to
avoid importing Open Data from official sources.

Cheerio John

On 24 Oct 2016 7:35 pm, "Pine W"  wrote:

> Just a comment that I'd be wary of "No hunting", "Hunting allowed", or
> "Private property", or other signs on the ground that can actually be
> placed by anyone, whether or not they are legal. A problem that I've
> encountered more than once is a private property owner putting out what
> appeared to me to be an illegal sign, like putting a home-made speed limit
> sign on the small street that goes by their house. A similar problem that
> I've heard about is business owners putting out "No parking", "Customer
> parking only", "Private beach", and similar signs which were made to look
> official but actually were not approved by any government agency. So
> signage that you see in public is not always trustworthy, and I would be
> cautious about relying on it. Relying on official databases seems to me to
> be preferable to relying on signage.
>
> Pine
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > Il giorno 24 ott 2016, alle ore 20:22, yvecai  ha
>> scritto:
>> >
>> > Michal,
>> > You're half right IMO. I don't see such problems if
>> > 1) tagging is made by hunters
>> > 2) mapping is made by hunters
>>
>>
>> I'm not a hunter, but I have encountered a lot of "hunting forbidden"
>> signs in different places, sometimes every few meters apparently delimiting
>> an area. While I didn't map them at the time, I guess I could have done it
>> without having deeper insights into the hunting business, simply by looking
>> where the signs were.
>>
>> What you ask for is desirable, but I would not make it a requirement. In
>> any field you can provide better mapping if you know more about the topic,
>> but this hasn't led us to only ask specialists for their contribution.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Pine W]

Just a comment that I'd be wary of "No hunting", "Hunting allowed", or
"Private property", or other signs on the ground that can actually be
placed by anyone, whether or not they are legal. A problem that I've
encountered more than once is a private property owner putting out what
appeared to me to be an illegal sign, like putting a home-made speed limit
sign on the small street that goes by their house. A similar problem that
I've heard about is business owners putting out "No parking", "Customer
parking only", "Private beach", and similar signs which were made to look
official but actually were not approved by any government agency. So
signage that you see in public is not always trustworthy, and I would be
cautious about relying on it. Relying on official databases seems to me to
be preferable to relying on signage.

Pine

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Il giorno 24 ott 2016, alle ore 20:22, yvecai  ha
> scritto:
> >
> > Michal,
> > You're half right IMO. I don't see such problems if
> > 1) tagging is made by hunters
> > 2) mapping is made by hunters
>
>
> I'm not a hunter, but I have encountered a lot of "hunting forbidden"
> signs in different places, sometimes every few meters apparently delimiting
> an area. While I didn't map them at the time, I guess I could have done it
> without having deeper insights into the hunting business, simply by looking
> where the signs were.
>
> What you ask for is desirable, but I would not make it a requirement. In
> any field you can provide better mapping if you know more about the topic,
> but this hasn't led us to only ask specialists for their contribution.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 24 ott 2016, alle ore 20:22, yvecai  ha scritto:
> 
> Michal,
> You're half right IMO. I don't see such problems if
> 1) tagging is made by hunters
> 2) mapping is made by hunters


I'm not a hunter, but I have encountered a lot of "hunting forbidden" signs in 
different places, sometimes every few meters apparently delimiting an area. 
While I didn't map them at the time, I guess I could have done it without 
having deeper insights into the hunting business, simply by looking where the 
signs were.

What you ask for is desirable, but I would not make it a requirement. In any 
field you can provide better mapping if you know more about the topic, but this 
hasn't led us to only ask specialists for their contribution.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Warin]

On 25-Oct-16 01:01 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote:

I, for one, think that hunting areas don't really belong to OSM. Or at
least benefits are outweighed by problems.


OSM was initially aimed at mapping streets.
Do not limit the development of OSM in any direction! IF someone wants to give 
an indication then they should not be restrained but rather encouraged.


  Firstly they may or may not
be associated with OSM features. In the latter case, there's no
guarantee that someone who edits a forest would understand it and not
merge it with other forest (Not to mention inconsistency of treating
ponds/lakes in forests as either cutting a hole or not). Also, there
may or may not be any on-the-ground markings. If there are none, there
should be an official database to which one can refer, in which case
there's no point in duplicating it in OSM.


The same can be said for National Parks, Forests, local playgrounds, 
supermarkets ... OSM would be much less usefull without this 'duplicated data'.
Placing all this data into one open source data base makes OSM itself much more 
usefull.


The legal details vary around the world and we have seen that both
mapping legal state and implementing very elaborate tagging (here it'd
be: who, when, what, how) have not been successful.


The mapping of legal country boundaries (where not in dispute) looks good to 
me. It is certainly usable by me and therefore usefull = successful.



Not to mention any hunter who needs this data would rather go to
official sources and not trust a map that anyone can edit.


"Anyone who needs a map would rather go to an 'official source' and not trust 
OSM." Yep .. sounds good Michał.


Obviously, we map legal state sometimes (like for routing), but this
is mostly pragmatic and secondary to the feature. Here the legal state
is a feature in itself.



Could say the same for a National Park...

 My view is

1) If someone wants to map something, they can map it in OSM. That cannot be 
disputed.

2) The question then becomes .. What is the best method of mapping it? And that 
is the question this group was set up to answer.

If you disagree with 1) then your not really open source.
If you don't want to answer 2) then why are you here?


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[yvecai]

Michal,
You're half right IMO. I don't see such problems if
1) tagging is made by hunters
2) mapping is made by hunters

Yves

On 24.10.2016 16:01, Michał Brzozowski wrote:

I, for one, think that hunting areas don't really belong to OSM. Or at
least benefits are outweighed by problems. Firstly they may or may not
be associated with OSM features. In the latter case, there's no
guarantee that someone who edits a forest would understand it and not
merge it with other forest (Not to mention inconsistency of treating
ponds/lakes in forests as either cutting a hole or not). Also, there
may or may not be any on-the-ground markings. If there are none, there
should be an official database to which one can refer, in which case
there's no point in duplicating it in OSM.
The legal details vary around the world and we have seen that both
mapping legal state and implementing very elaborate tagging (here it'd
be: who, when, what, how) have not been successful.
Not to mention any hunter who needs this data would rather go to
official sources and not trust a map that anyone can edit.
Obviously, we map legal state sometimes (like for routing), but this
is mostly pragmatic and secondary to the feature. Here the legal state
is a feature in itself.

Michał

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Hunting area tagging

[Michał Brzozowski]

I, for one, think that hunting areas don't really belong to OSM. Or at
least benefits are outweighed by problems. Firstly they may or may not
be associated with OSM features. In the latter case, there's no
guarantee that someone who edits a forest would understand it and not
merge it with other forest (Not to mention inconsistency of treating
ponds/lakes in forests as either cutting a hole or not). Also, there
may or may not be any on-the-ground markings. If there are none, there
should be an official database to which one can refer, in which case
there's no point in duplicating it in OSM.
The legal details vary around the world and we have seen that both
mapping legal state and implementing very elaborate tagging (here it'd
be: who, when, what, how) have not been successful.
Not to mention any hunter who needs this data would rather go to
official sources and not trust a map that anyone can edit.
Obviously, we map legal state sometimes (like for routing), but this
is mostly pragmatic and secondary to the feature. Here the legal state
is a feature in itself.

Michał

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