Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Am Montag 27 Oktober 2008 schrieb Claudius Henrichs: > Taxis are not allowed on bus lanes in Germany... > at least in munich they are. but that is in bavaria, not germany ;-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Matthias Julius:
> "Tristan Scott"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> In my experience (Norwich, UK) a so-called "bus lane" is often a Bus,
>> taxi and cycle lane. The overlords of roads in norwich often nobble
>> cars by shutting down a small portion of a short-cut ("rat run") by
>> making a bottleneck area bus lane. Therefore taxis carry on using the
>> shortcut, and cars must go join the queue on the main road through.
>>
>> the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
>> does not also mean taxis.
>
> Since this is not the case everywhere in the world I guess having
> separate bus and taxi tags (or busway and taxiway) are needed.
>
> It would be good if someone could update the psv tag on Map Features
> to clarify that this also includes taxis.
Taxis are not allowed on bus lanes in Germany...
+vote for seperate taxi access rules :)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Matthias Julius wrote: > "Tristan Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane >> does not also mean taxis. > > Since this is not the case everywhere in the world I guess having > separate bus and taxi tags (or busway and taxiway) are needed. In the USA, bus-only restrictions are common, and do not include other vehicle types. There are 'HOV' restrictions that do, however, though any vehicle with more than the posted number of passengers are allowed in those lanes. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
"Tristan Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> In my experience (Norwich, UK) a so-called "bus lane" is often a Bus,
> taxi and cycle lane. The overlords of roads in norwich often nobble
> cars by shutting down a small portion of a short-cut ("rat run") by
> making a bottleneck area bus lane. Therefore taxis carry on using the
> shortcut, and cars must go join the queue on the main road through.
>
> the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
> does not also mean taxis.
Since this is not the case everywhere in the world I guess having
separate bus and taxi tags (or busway and taxiway) are needed.
It would be good if someone could update the psv tag on Map Features
to clarify that this also includes taxis.
Matthias
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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
In my experience (Norwich, UK) a so-called "bus lane" is often a Bus,
taxi and cycle lane. The overlords of roads in norwich often nobble
cars by shutting down a small portion of a short-cut ("rat run") by
making a bottleneck area bus lane. Therefore taxis carry on using the
shortcut, and cars must go join the queue on the main road through.
the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
does not also mean taxis.
Not sure if cyclists are allowed in bus lanes but in my experience
cyclists, by virtue of not having numberplates, are immune to all
traffic laws, and simply ignore any and all restrictions anyway.
Tristan
2008/10/26 Stephen Hope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "Passenger service vehicles (PSVs) are:
>
>* vehicles used in a passenger service (no matter how many seating
> positions they might have)
>* vehicles with more than 12 seating positions (whether they're
> used for hire or reward or not)
>* heavy motor vehicles with more than nine seating positions"
>
> So Taxis, Shuttles, Buses, some minivans (the big ones have 14 seats).
> I have a friend with a horse float that qualifies.
>
> In reality, it's almost always buses that use the PSV lanes, but some
> other vehicles are allowed in some places.
>
> Stephen
>
> 2008/10/23 Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> "Stephen Hope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>> Not all PSV's are buses.
>>
>> What else?
>>
>> Matthias
>>
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--
Tristan Scott BSc(Hons)
Yare Valley Technical Services
www.yvts.co.uk
07837 205829
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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
"Passenger service vehicles (PSVs) are: * vehicles used in a passenger service (no matter how many seating positions they might have) * vehicles with more than 12 seating positions (whether they're used for hire or reward or not) * heavy motor vehicles with more than nine seating positions" So Taxis, Shuttles, Buses, some minivans (the big ones have 14 seats). I have a friend with a horse float that qualifies. In reality, it's almost always buses that use the PSV lanes, but some other vehicles are allowed in some places. Stephen 2008/10/23 Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > "Stephen Hope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Not all PSV's are buses. > > What else? > > Matthias > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
"Stephen Hope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Not all PSV's are buses. What else? Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Given the existing use of psv=opposite_lane I'll go with that for now. > (I don't think it does clash with psv=other things BTW). I didn't mean to say that it clashes with the existing use of the psv tag, but it would be inconsistent with the way cycle lanes are handled. There, different tags are used (cycleway and bicycle). > psv rather than bus is less than obvious for non-English speakers. You can probably extend that to non-UK people in general (don't know about Ireland). I have never heard that term in the US for example. I know what a bus is, but I didn't know about PSV until a few days ago. The same goes for HGV. So at least to me it is a lot less intuitive. > Changing to bus=opposite_lane is merely linguistic tinkering, though > I know how much that excites people on this list. Well, it's a bit more than that, see above. I think there is a benefit in having a more intuitive tagging scheme. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
David Earl wrote: >Sent: 23 October 2008 9:25 AM >To: Richard Fairhurst >Cc: osm >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane > >On 23/10/2008 09:00, Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: >> >>> I also have one in the centre of Sutton Coldfield. Think when I >>> mapped it >>> (ages and ages ago) I made it two separate ways which obviously >>> isn't right. >>> So interested to hear what people think. >> >> +1. There's one in Worcester. Except it's labelled (in the car-flow >> direction) by "BUS & CYCLE" painted on the road, where cycle is the >> usual pictogram. >> >> Consequently you could, and I almost have, cycle along there in the >> belief that it's a with-flow cycle lane... only to be flattened by an >> oncoming bus. Not funny (well, maybe a bit). > >Was that a +1 for separate ways or a +1 for "which obviously isn't >right"? The latter I hope. > >Given the existing use of psv=opposite_lane I'll go with that for now. >(I don't think it does clash with psv=other things BTW). psv rather than >bus is less than obvious for non-English speakers. Changing to >bus=opposite_lane is merely linguistic tinkering, though I know how much >that excites people on this list. > >However, it occurs to me that there is a more general problem here. Many >roads are divided into lanes with different uses (obviously with some >basic defaults), including different types of vehicle - bus, with or >without taxi, bicycle, motorbike, hgv; cycles with other traffic allowed >too or not; multiple vehicle occupancy; ... - and different types of >permitted manoeuvre - right turn only; left turn only; ... > >The x=lane notation is going to bend at the knees doing this. Maybe we >need a general mechanism that describes each lane when the road is more >than a simple footway + n any-vehicle traffic lanes arrangement. Perhaps >include the ones on the verge too. Hills Road in Cambridge >(http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/embed.html?bbox=0.13402,52.17604,0.149 >51,52.18583&layer=mapnik&marker=52.18100,0.14119") >would need a support description like this: > >footway (on verge) >cycle track (on verge) >cycle lane (mandatory) (*) >any vehicle >any vehicle opposite >cycle lane opposite >footway I see exactly this type of approach in the longer term but was not sure if it should all be an OSM thing or whether I should think about it in terms of a gazetteer approach, ie all the attributes and information about a street stored in a different database but using OSM data as the starting point. Obviously though I can see the benefits of including everything within OSM itself if it can be made to work. Because streets are liner features between logical node points its relatively easy to define the sequence as you cross from one side of the highway (Right-of-way) envelope to the other, adding widths and descriptions for each characteristic from grass to tarmac, kerb details the lot (if you are so inclined). The only issue is way direction for 2-way roads in that the information becomes erroneous if the way direction is swapped. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
On 23/10/2008 09:00, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> I also have one in the centre of Sutton Coldfield. Think when I >> mapped it >> (ages and ages ago) I made it two separate ways which obviously >> isn't right. >> So interested to hear what people think. > > +1. There's one in Worcester. Except it's labelled (in the car-flow > direction) by "BUS & CYCLE" painted on the road, where cycle is the > usual pictogram. > > Consequently you could, and I almost have, cycle along there in the > belief that it's a with-flow cycle lane... only to be flattened by an > oncoming bus. Not funny (well, maybe a bit). Was that a +1 for separate ways or a +1 for "which obviously isn't right"? The latter I hope. Given the existing use of psv=opposite_lane I'll go with that for now. (I don't think it does clash with psv=other things BTW). psv rather than bus is less than obvious for non-English speakers. Changing to bus=opposite_lane is merely linguistic tinkering, though I know how much that excites people on this list. However, it occurs to me that there is a more general problem here. Many roads are divided into lanes with different uses (obviously with some basic defaults), including different types of vehicle - bus, with or without taxi, bicycle, motorbike, hgv; cycles with other traffic allowed too or not; multiple vehicle occupancy; ... - and different types of permitted manoeuvre - right turn only; left turn only; ... The x=lane notation is going to bend at the knees doing this. Maybe we need a general mechanism that describes each lane when the road is more than a simple footway + n any-vehicle traffic lanes arrangement. Perhaps include the ones on the verge too. Hills Road in Cambridge (http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/embed.html?bbox=0.13402,52.17604,0.14951,52.18583&layer=mapnik&marker=52.18100,0.14119";) would need a support description like this: footway (on verge) cycle track (on verge) cycle lane (mandatory) (*) any vehicle any vehicle opposite cycle lane opposite footway (* yes, there are parallel cycle track and cycle lane: http://www.camcycle.org.uk/map/location/5837/) Newmarket Road between Barnwell Road and Ditton Lane ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/embed.html?bbox=0.162679,52.211031,0.166552,52.213476&layer=mapnik&marker=52.21231,0.16471 ) would need shared footway / cycle (on verge) any vehicle left turn only cycle lane (mandatory) any vehicle straight on only any vehicle opposite any vehicle opposite footway (on verge) David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > I also have one in the centre of Sutton Coldfield. Think when I > mapped it > (ages and ages ago) I made it two separate ways which obviously > isn't right. > So interested to hear what people think. +1. There's one in Worcester. Except it's labelled (in the car-flow direction) by "BUS & CYCLE" painted on the road, where cycle is the usual pictogram. Consequently you could, and I almost have, cycle along there in the belief that it's a with-flow cycle lane... only to be flattened by an oncoming bus. Not funny (well, maybe a bit). cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Not all PSV's are buses. 2008/10/23 Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Shaun McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. > > I missed that. It would have been too easy to call a bus "bus", I > guess ;-) > > Should we rename "bus_stop" to "psv_stop"? > > Matthias > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 22/10/2008 19:04, Shaun McDonald wrote: >> >> On 22 Oct 2008, at 18:57, Matthias Julius wrote: >> >>> David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >>> I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the equivalent of cycleway=lane) bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? >>> >>> Or "busway". I think "bus" would collide with the access tags. There >>> is no "bus" tag in the Restrictions section, but there probably should >>> be one. >> >> Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. > > So for consistency, maybe psv=lane/lane_opposite? Well this would really interfere with the existing psv tag. Or, "cycleway=lane_opposite" should be changed to "bicycle=lane_opposite", for consistency. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:21 PM, David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 22/10/2008 19:04, Shaun McDonald wrote: >> >> On 22 Oct 2008, at 18:57, Matthias Julius wrote: >> >>> David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >>> I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the equivalent of cycleway=lane) bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? >>> >>> Or "busway". I think "bus" would collide with the access tags. There >>> is no "bus" tag in the Restrictions section, but there probably should >>> be one. >> >> Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. > > So for consistency, maybe psv=lane/lane_opposite? > I've tagged a couple psv=opposite_lane in London in the past. I was thinking of doing busway=opposite_lane to match cycleway=opposite_lane but in the end didn't... I can't remember why I chose one over the other :-) Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
On 22/10/2008 19:04, Shaun McDonald wrote: > > On 22 Oct 2008, at 18:57, Matthias Julius wrote: > >> David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >>> I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow >>> cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had >>> occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in >>> Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is >>> nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the >>> equivalent of cycleway=lane) >>> >>> bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? >> >> Or "busway". I think "bus" would collide with the access tags. There >> is no "bus" tag in the Restrictions section, but there probably should >> be one. > > Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. So for consistency, maybe psv=lane/lane_opposite? David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
Shaun McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. I missed that. It would have been too easy to call a bus "bus", I guess ;-) Should we rename "bus_stop" to "psv_stop"? Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
On 22 Oct 2008, at 18:57, Matthias Julius wrote: David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the equivalent of cycleway=lane) bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? Or "busway". I think "bus" would collide with the access tags. There is no "bus" tag in the Restrictions section, but there probably should be one. Usually psv for public service vehicle is used for access restrictions. Shaun The same is probably aplicable to taxis and trams as well. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow > cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had > occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in > Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is > nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the > equivalent of cycleway=lane) > > bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? Or "busway". I think "bus" would collide with the access tags. There is no "bus" tag in the Restrictions section, but there probably should be one. The same is probably aplicable to taxis and trams as well. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane
I also have one in the centre of Sutton Coldfield. Think when I mapped it (ages and ages ago) I made it two separate ways which obviously isn't right. So interested to hear what people think. Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Earl >Sent: 22 October 2008 6:22 PM >To: osm >Subject: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane > >I came across a contraflow bus lane yesterday. If it were a contraflow >cycle lane I'd mark the road "cycleway=lane_opposite". has anyone had >occasion to do the equivalent for for buses? There's nothing in >Map_features to guide me. (Actually come to think it it, there is >nothing to allow me to mark an ordinary bus lane on a two way road, the >equivalent of cycleway=lane) > >bus=lane/lane_opposite perhaps? > >David > > > >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1738 - Release Date: 21/10/2008 >2:10 PM ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
