Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Yuri, I did not find a way to open an issue about the bot (https://github.com/Sophox/sophox/tree/metabot/metabot is a branch, so any issues would appear to be about Sophox). Is there an appropriate place to request changes, besides Talk:Date_items? - Joseph Eisenberg On 2/19/20, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: > > > > 18 Feb 2020, 21:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > >> >> >> sent from a phone >> >>> Il giorno 18 feb 2020, alle ore 18:32, Joseph Eisenberg >>> ha scritto: >>> >>> Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data >>> items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least >>> one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for >>> undocumented tags. >>> >> >> >> >> I agree. >> > I agree, with main motivation of > discouraging data items from > replacing wiki pages. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
18 Feb 2020, 21:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > >> Il giorno 18 feb 2020, alle ore 18:32, Joseph Eisenberg >> ha scritto: >> >> Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data >> items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least >> one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for >> undocumented tags. >> > > > > I agree. > I agree, with main motivation of discouraging data items from replacing wiki pages.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
19 Feb 2020, 00:14 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com: > It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any kind of > tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to > document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand > that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, etc). > New pages are very often created without a proposal process. It is untrue that tag needs to go through a proposal process to be documented. And it is desirable to create such pages. To repeat: people are welcomed to create new pages for not yet documented tags and values. Easiest way to do this is to copy content from the existing page and edit it. In case of technical issues feel free to save broken version and sunshine will fix it, or create page without infobox template or ask for help. You may be confusing it with mentioning new tags on pages describing popular tags. > When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding > such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they > simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the > description. > See above, you solve problem that does NOT exists. And iD goal is to hide existence of tags from mappers. I am not a fan of solution that would make easy for such mappers to edit tag descriptions. Is it actually implemented? If yes - is anyone looking at quality of changes made? (I keep data items of my wiki watchlistas it is impossible to hide edits indescriptions in languages unfamiliar to me) > Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to > another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions > __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without > visiting the wiki. > So goal is to make easy to diverge OSM Wiki page description from its summary description, due to allowing to edit without looking at context? I see it as the next major negative for data items.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
> How is this synchronized? > Will every user be able to change the definition of any tag for everyone? >Is there some kind of moderation or peer review? Good questions. If the tag is already frequently used, the description should be based on how the tag has been used, not merely on one user’s opinions. >Or is it a question whether you’re the first person or not and modifying is not possible? If the tag has never before been used, then it would make sense to ask the mapper to describe the tag when they attempt to add it in JOSM or iD etc. This suggests that an Item:Q page should be be created by the Editor application at the time when the “description=“ is added. Is there any technical reason that would not work? Could a stub Wiki Tag: or Key: page be created instead or in addition? - Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
> “ we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand that each key page go through a proposals process” This is incorrect. Anyone can make a new wiki page for a tag, and it happens several times a day on average. There are more new Tag: and Key: pages than new proposal pages. I did not say anything against creating wiki pages to document tags. When I last asked about this, it was clear that most people think it is fine to follow “Any Tags You Like” by creating new wiki pages for any tag you have used. But I am unhappy with the bot creating Item:Q pages which are essential blank: they only have the key=value and the item Q code. What do you see as the benefit for creating such a data Item page for any tag which has been used merely a dozen times and has not been documented anywhere? The claim above is that mappers should be able to add a description or translation or in JOSM or iD directly, but couldn’t the Item:Q* page be created at that time? -Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
sent from a phone > Il giorno 19 feb 2020, alle ore 00:17, Yuri Astrakhan > ha scritto: > > When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding > such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they > simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the > description. iD users typically don’t even see tags, it’s also a goal of the developers that users don’t have to care about tags. Are you writing about preset descriptions? > > Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to > another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions > __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without > visiting the wiki. How is this synchronized? Will every user be able to change the definition of any tag for everyone? Is there some kind of moderation or peer review? Or is it a question whether you’re the first person or not and modifying is not possible? Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any kind of tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, etc). I believe this is a ridiculous situation solvable with the data items. If I, the editor, create a new tag, I should have a way to type in a short textual description (one/two sentences) explaining what that tag is. Without knowing how to create wiki pages or data item pages or using the right templates, or even knowing which fields to fill out where. Data items allow for that. When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the description. Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without visiting the wiki. These tools will be able to view other metadata as well -- e.g. if this tag should be usable on a way/node in a consistent way, regardless of the language of the user. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:54 PM Andrew Hain wrote: > I strongly disagree. > > It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database > with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type [ > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible > to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when > editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag > documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a record > that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to > research its content. As such the data item and others like it are useful > on their own. > > -- > Andrew > -- > *From:* Joseph Eisenberg > *Sent:* 18 February 2020 17:28 > *To:* osm > *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented > tags > > Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. > > According to > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process > the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically > created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a > certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. > > The data item is created in this case with the text "Created a new > Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history > > This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, > "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then > yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not > understand why there was already a data item: > > "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created > landuse=research, but the data item > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history > was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then > created?" > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F > > Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by > bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start > editing these data items without first creating an actual > human-readable wiki page to document the tag. > > In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document > how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, > but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. > > Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via > "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items > created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names > are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans. > > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. > > Joseph Eisenberg > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
I strongly disagree. It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a record that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to research its content. As such the data item and others like it are useful on their own. -- Andrew From: Joseph Eisenberg Sent: 18 February 2020 17:28 To: osm Subject: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. The data item is created in this case with the text "Created a new Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not understand why there was already a data item: "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created landuse=research, but the data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then created?" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start editing these data items without first creating an actual human-readable wiki page to document the tag. In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans. Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for undocumented tags. Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
sent from a phone > Il giorno 18 feb 2020, alle ore 18:32, Joseph Eisenberg > ha scritto: > > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. I agree. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Hi, Am 18.02.20 um 18:46 schrieb Frederik Ramm: > Agree, and I would also request that *any* automated change to the Wiki > be discussed before it is implemented. The use of bots puts too much > power in the hands of those who write them, and this must be balanced by > a requirement to involve the non-bot-writing part of the community > before launch. I think that the Automated Edits Code of Conduct should be extended to edits on the wiki and proposed edits covered by it discussed on this mailing list if their scope is global or spans multiple countries. Best regards Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Hi, On 18.02.20 18:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. Agree, and I would also request that *any* automated change to the Wiki be discussed before it is implemented. The use of bots puts too much power in the hands of those who write them, and this must be balanced by a requirement to involve the non-bot-writing part of the community before launch. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
