Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Simon Poole]

Am 10. Mai 2018 18:58:04 MESZ schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev 
:
>On 5/10/2018 5:43 PM, Jo wrote:
...
>
>Indeed, Swiss German pronunciation differs from the Standard German 
>significantly, but it is written practically the same as the Standard 
>German. 

Just to add a bit of complexity (and to illustrate even more that there are no 
simple answers): what Oleksiy is referring to is the Swiss version of Standard 
German, not Swiss German. Swiss German is an allemanic dialect (actually a 
group of dialects) that is spoken in German speaking Switzerland as the 
everyday language. While this is a diglossia 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia?wprov=sfla1 using Swiss German is 
neither a indication of class or education and you will find it in use even in 
formal situations.  

So now you know what name:gsw is supposed to be if you ever come across the tag 
( there is no real agreed upon written form of Swiss German so it is a bit 
iffy).
Simon

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 5/10/2018 5:43 PM, Jo wrote:

Marc,

I probably shouldn't have mentioned Switzerland. I thought it was 
"nicely" divided into clear language regions, but apparently not. My 
only experience with it was that in the part neighboring Germany they 
spoke something that resembled German somewhat, but once we passed the 
Sankth-Gottard pass, everyone spoke Italian (and hardly any German).


In Belgium, at least, it's completely defined in what language 
official signs should be written in, in each of the regions.


In most parts of the world, I think this is not the case, which makes 
it hard to set this default_language tag, without mentioning all the 
'possible' ones. I guess the best we can achieve is cover the majority 
and then use name:language for the exceptions?


Jo
In towns where there are French, German and Italian linguistic 
communities the signs may be written in two (or three) languages 
simultaneously. Here is, for example, photo of the train stationat the 
town of Sierre in the canton Valais: 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sierre/Siders_train_station#/media/File:Sierre-Siders_train_station-2.jpg


I've made this photo in December 2016. The name of the town on the sign 
is written as: Sierre/Siders. In French and Italian languages it is 
written the same: Sierre, in German it is: Siders ( 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siders ).


It is the common practice. Here is, as another example, a photo of some 
supermarkets products, which I just shot: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18tIzVjiriyHAlDKnRa8veLHaE8TETbxR . One 
can see that the product title is in three languages: German, French ad 
Italian. And it is not only the title, but also a description, a 
preparation recipe, etc., all are in three languages. It is very 
convenient for someone who studies these languages.


Indeed, Swiss German pronunciation differs from the Standard German 
significantly, but it is written practically the same as the Standard 
German. The language in the northern Belgium is called Flemish. Both 
Dutch and Flemish are part of the Dutch Language Union, they both are 
part of the same language group. But I do not know if there are 
significant differences in writing, i.e in orthography.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Jo]

Marc,

I probably shouldn't have mentioned Switzerland. I thought it was "nicely"
divided into clear language regions, but apparently not. My only experience
with it was that in the part neighboring Germany they spoke something that
resembled German somewhat, but once we passed the Sankth-Gottard pass,
everyone spoke Italian (and hardly any German).

In Belgium, at least, it's completely defined in what language official
signs should be written in, in each of the regions.

In most parts of the world, I think this is not the case, which makes it
hard to set this default_language tag, without mentioning all the
'possible' ones. I guess the best we can achieve is cover the majority and
then use name:language for the exceptions?

Jo

2018-05-10 11:35 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> Don't you think that Belgians like Jo and the rest of the Belgian
> community know best what the default language is in a certain area ?
> This can be a pretty sensitive topic, which is not always easy to
> understand by outsiders. So please let the Belgian community decide
> the default language without pointing us to our constitution.
>
>
> regards
>
> m. (from Belgium)
>
>
> p.s. Besides those areas you mention we also have Municipalities with
> facilities [1]
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
>  wrote:
> > On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:
> >>
> >> The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
> >> official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
> >> Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
> >> combination of fr - nl.
> >>
> >> Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You
> may
> >> have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at
> the
> >> next smaller geographic regions.
> >>
> >> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
> >> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language
> is
> >> spoken/official for which region).
> >>
> >> I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
> >> defined.
> >>
> >> Jo
> >
> >
> > Hello Jo and Yuri,
> >
> > Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]
> >
> > "Article 4
> > Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region, the
> > French-
> > speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the
> > German-speaking region.
> > Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic
> > regions."
> >
> > In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four
> > national languages. It is also the article 4:
> >
> > "Art. 4 National languages
> > The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."
> >
> > It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for these
> > countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the best
> > solution.
> >
> > [1]
> > https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/
> constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
> > [2]
> > https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/
> 19995395/index.html#a4
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Oleksiy
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Marc, Oleksiy, thanks for your insights! And Marc, I agree that it should
always be up to the local community to decide.  The only thing I ask is to
please keep in mind that the "default_language" is simply a reflection of
what local OSM editors have already used for the name tag in the majority
of cases, and the reflection of the OSM naming rules in the area, not the
official language.

Eventually we could even get iD editor to show the language name next to
the "name" tag  (e.g.  "name in Dutch: []"), or possibly to auto-create
a corresponding name:nl=... tag (at least for the single language areas)

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 12:55 PM Oleksiy Muzalyev <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> This was exactly my point. That it is a sensitive topic. And it may be
> unclear to people who live in a national state with a single official
> language.
> That is why I provided the texts of articles, to illustrate that there
> is a multi-language historical equilibrium reflected it the official
> documents.
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
> On 10.05.18 11:35, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > Don't you think that Belgians like Jo and the rest of the Belgian
> > community know best what the default language is in a certain area ?
> > This can be a pretty sensitive topic, which is not always easy to
> > understand by outsiders. So please let the Belgian community decide
> > the default language without pointing us to our constitution.
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> > m. (from Belgium)
> >
> >
> > p.s. Besides those areas you mention we also have Municipalities with
> > facilities [1]
> >
> >
> > [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities
> >
> > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
> >  wrote:
> >> On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:
> >>> The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
> >>> official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
> >>> Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
> >>> combination of fr - nl.
> >>>
> >>> Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You
> may
> >>> have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at
> the
> >>> next smaller geographic regions.
> >>>
> >>> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
> >>> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language
> is
> >>> spoken/official for which region).
> >>>
> >>> I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
> >>> defined.
> >>>
> >>> Jo
> >>
> >> Hello Jo and Yuri,
> >>
> >> Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]
> >>
> >> "Article 4
> >> Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region,
> the
> >> French-
> >> speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the
> >> German-speaking region.
> >> Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic
> >> regions."
> >>
> >> In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four
> >> national languages. It is also the article 4:
> >>
> >> "Art. 4 National languages
> >> The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."
> >>
> >> It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for
> these
> >> countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the best
> >> solution.
> >>
> >> [1]
> >>
> https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
> >> [2]
> >>
> https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Oleksiy
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

This was exactly my point. That it is a sensitive topic. And it may be 
unclear to people who live in a national state with a single official 
language.
That is why I provided the texts of articles, to illustrate that there 
is a multi-language historical equilibrium reflected it the official 
documents.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 10.05.18 11:35, Marc Gemis wrote:

Don't you think that Belgians like Jo and the rest of the Belgian
community know best what the default language is in a certain area ?
This can be a pretty sensitive topic, which is not always easy to
understand by outsiders. So please let the Belgian community decide
the default language without pointing us to our constitution.


regards

m. (from Belgium)


p.s. Besides those areas you mention we also have Municipalities with
facilities [1]


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:

On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:

The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
combination of fr - nl.

Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You may
have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at the
next smaller geographic regions.

I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language is
spoken/official for which region).

I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
defined.

Jo


Hello Jo and Yuri,

Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]

"Article 4
Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region, the
French-
speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the
German-speaking region.
Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic
regions."

In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four
national languages. It is also the article 4:

"Art. 4 National languages
The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."

It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for these
countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the best
solution.

[1]
https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
[2]
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4

Best regards,
Oleksiy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Marc Gemis]

Don't you think that Belgians like Jo and the rest of the Belgian
community know best what the default language is in a certain area ?
This can be a pretty sensitive topic, which is not always easy to
understand by outsiders. So please let the Belgian community decide
the default language without pointing us to our constitution.


regards

m. (from Belgium)


p.s. Besides those areas you mention we also have Municipalities with
facilities [1]


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:
> On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:
>>
>> The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
>> official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
>> Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
>> combination of fr - nl.
>>
>> Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You may
>> have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at the
>> next smaller geographic regions.
>>
>> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
>> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language is
>> spoken/official for which region).
>>
>> I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
>> defined.
>>
>> Jo
>
>
> Hello Jo and Yuri,
>
> Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]
>
> "Article 4
> Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region, the
> French-
> speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the
> German-speaking region.
> Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic
> regions."
>
> In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four
> national languages. It is also the article 4:
>
> "Art. 4 National languages
> The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."
>
> It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for these
> countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the best
> solution.
>
> [1]
> https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
> [2]
> https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.05.2018 um 07:46 schrieb Jo:
> 
>
> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language
> is spoken/official for which region).
> 
This not correct, while there are regions (as this is not strictly
hierarchical and my differ at a municipality level) that have one
official language there are numerous which are (not only) officially
bi-lingual.

Simon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:
The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the 
official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is 
de. Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a 
combination of fr - nl.


Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You 
may have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look 
at the next smaller geographic regions.


I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official 
languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language 
is spoken/official for which region).


I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly 
defined.


Jo


Hello Jo and Yuri,

Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]

"Article 4
Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region, 
the French-
speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the 
German-speaking region.
Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic 
regions."


In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four 
national languages. It is also the article 4:


"Art. 4 National languages
The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."

It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for 
these countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the 
best solution.


[1] 
https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
[2] 
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4


Best regards,
Oleksiy

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. May 2018, at 01:34, Jo  wrote:
> 
> Where problems actually do occur is in streets which have a different name on 
> both sides (only in Belgium, I guess. It happens on streets that form the 
> border between two 'villages'). Anyway, then the name tag can contain up to 4 
> variants.


This is not completely unseen in other parts of the world as well, the common 
solution are name:right and name:left tags.

Cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Jo, thx, so if these kinds of objects already have "name:xx" for all
mentioned languages, international map would use those instead of the name
tag anyway, so that's not an issue.

BTW, international maps have launched on Wikipedias!
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2018-May/089964.html

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:34 AM Jo  wrote:

> Where problems actually do occur is in streets which have a different name
> on both sides (only in Belgium, I guess. It happens on streets that form
> the border between two 'villages'). Anyway, then the name tag can contain
> up to 4 variants.
>
> The separator is ' - ' on purpose, to distinguish it from a simple hyphen.
> We were smart enough not to use that ' - ' combination for anything else
> than separating 2 language forms. And there is always a name:nl and name:fr
> to compare with on those objects.
>
> Jo
>
> 2018-05-10 1:10 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 10. May 2018, at 00:47, Yuri Astrakhan 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > In the few rare cases when it does happen, it would be enough to also
>> add "name:fr" and "name:nl" tags to fix the issue -- localization would
>> take the specific language, and won't even try to parse the name tag.  I
>> think finding these cases should be relatively easy with OT.
>>
>>
>> The problem I see with less prominent objects is that you only have a
>> name and can’t tell whether that is one name in one language or 2 names in
>> different languages for the same thing separated by a hyphen. Potentially
>> this could happen in other tags like operator as well.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Jo]

Where problems actually do occur is in streets which have a different name
on both sides (only in Belgium, I guess. It happens on streets that form
the border between two 'villages'). Anyway, then the name tag can contain
up to 4 variants.

The separator is ' - ' on purpose, to distinguish it from a simple hyphen.
We were smart enough not to use that ' - ' combination for anything else
than separating 2 language forms. And there is always a name:nl and name:fr
to compare with on those objects.

Jo

2018-05-10 1:10 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. May 2018, at 00:47, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> >
> > In the few rare cases when it does happen, it would be enough to also
> add "name:fr" and "name:nl" tags to fix the issue -- localization would
> take the specific language, and won't even try to parse the name tag.  I
> think finding these cases should be relatively easy with OT.
>
>
> The problem I see with less prominent objects is that you only have a name
> and can’t tell whether that is one name in one language or 2 names in
> different languages for the same thing separated by a hyphen. Potentially
> this could happen in other tags like operator as well.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Martin, how can we evaluate the extent of this, to see how serious this may
be?

BTW, I totally agree that doing a guessing game based on "nl - fr" to parse
the name is much worse than simply picking "name:nl" or "name:fr" when they
are available. names with multiple languages are not very helpful for the
truly multilingual maps.

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:10 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. May 2018, at 00:47, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> >
> > In the few rare cases when it does happen, it would be enough to also
> add "name:fr" and "name:nl" tags to fix the issue -- localization would
> take the specific language, and won't even try to parse the name tag.  I
> think finding these cases should be relatively easy with OT.
>
>
> The problem I see with less prominent objects is that you only have a name
> and can’t tell whether that is one name in one language or 2 names in
> different languages for the same thing separated by a hyphen. Potentially
> this could happen in other tags like operator as well.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. May 2018, at 00:47, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> In the few rare cases when it does happen, it would be enough to also add 
> "name:fr" and "name:nl" tags to fix the issue -- localization would take the 
> specific language, and won't even try to parse the name tag.  I think finding 
> these cases should be relatively easy with OT.


The problem I see with less prominent objects is that you only have a name and 
can’t tell whether that is one name in one language or 2 names in different 
languages for the same thing separated by a hyphen. Potentially this could 
happen in other tags like operator as well.

cheers,
Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Jo, thx. I just looked at all names inside relation 54094
(Brussels-Capital) - 12.691 names without the " - ", and 22,655 with them,
so makes perfect sense, thanks!   I think it doesn't really matter if
default_language is set for the whole Belgium to any specific language, or
left undefined, because the region with the higher admin_level, or a
non-admin smaller region would overwrite it anyway. Thanks for the
explanation!

On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:46 AM Jo  wrote:

> The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
> official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
> Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
> combination of fr - nl.
>
> Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You may
> have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at the
> next smaller geographic regions.
>
> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language is
> spoken/official for which region).
>
> I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
> defined.
>
> Jo
>
> 2018-05-09 2:37 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :
>
>> Polyglot, thanks!  I just ran the list of names for Belgium -
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yEj (takes a few minutes and 20MB download).
>> It seems that most of the names are single language.  Even cities tend to
>> be a single language strings, with a few exceptions (e.g. Brussels itself,
>> and the country name).
>>
>> So on one hand, we could set default_language to "nl / fr / de" to match
>> the country name format, or to two languages that match "Bruxelles -
>> Brussel"  ("fr - nl" ?). But in reality, the most helpful value is just a
>> single "nl" or "fr" (?), because for almost all "name" tags, there is just
>> a single language. The country name is a very rare exception, but it has
>> many other name:xx defined anyway, so it is not a problem - if user
>> requests "fr" or "nl", there is a name:fr and name:nl. And if user requests
>> something that's not defined, at the end it will still fall back to name
>> tag.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 2:39 AM Jo  wrote:
>>
>>> Since there is not 1 language for Belgium and nl;fr;de is not allowed,
>>> it won't be possible to set this tag for Belgium. I did set it on the
>>> regions/communities.
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> 2018-05-08 22:31 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :
>>>
 Daniel, I agree - it seems most of the low-zoom Moroccan names are in a
 triple-form,  and many local names are in a wild mix of french only and
 multi-lingual ones:   https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yE5 (thx trigpoint &
 FredrikLindseth on IRC!)  Do you want to change it, or should I?

 Also, there are still about 60 countries without a tag:
 http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv


 On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:
>
> > This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
> > tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
> > headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3
>
> What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
> Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
> just "ar"?
>
> --
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

 ___
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


>>>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Martin, in the "fr - nl" value, the "" separator is
what is being used in the name tag itself. I don't think it is very common
to have all three characters in the name, other than to split multiple
languages. In the few rare cases when it does happen, it would be enough to
also add "name:fr" and "name:nl" tags to fix the issue -- localization
would take the specific language, and won't even try to parse the name
tag.  I think finding these cases should be relatively easy with OT.

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:01 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 9. May 2018, at 02:37, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
>
> or to two languages that match "Bruxelles - Brussel"  ("fr - nl" ?).
>
>
>
> The hyphen/dash  is not a good choice for separating multiple languages
> because it occasionally occurs in names, e.g.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrop-Rauxel
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessau-Roßlau
> etc.
>
> Not sure about the slash (it sometimes occurs in German short names, e.g.
> Frankfurt/Main, Frankfurt/Oder), but it seems a tad better.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. May 2018, at 02:37, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> or to two languages that match "Bruxelles - Brussel"  ("fr - nl" ?).


The hyphen/dash  is not a good choice for separating multiple languages because 
it occasionally occurs in names, e.g. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrop-Rauxel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessau-Roßlau
etc.

Not sure about the slash (it sometimes occurs in German short names, e.g. 
Frankfurt/Main, Frankfurt/Oder), but it seems a tad better.

Cheers,
Martin___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Jo]

The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the official
language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de. Brussels is
officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a combination of fr -
nl.

Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You may
have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at the
next smaller geographic regions.

I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language is
spoken/official for which region).

I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
defined.

Jo

2018-05-09 2:37 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :

> Polyglot, thanks!  I just ran the list of names for Belgium -
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yEj (takes a few minutes and 20MB download).
> It seems that most of the names are single language.  Even cities tend to
> be a single language strings, with a few exceptions (e.g. Brussels itself,
> and the country name).
>
> So on one hand, we could set default_language to "nl / fr / de" to match
> the country name format, or to two languages that match "Bruxelles -
> Brussel"  ("fr - nl" ?). But in reality, the most helpful value is just a
> single "nl" or "fr" (?), because for almost all "name" tags, there is just
> a single language. The country name is a very rare exception, but it has
> many other name:xx defined anyway, so it is not a problem - if user
> requests "fr" or "nl", there is a name:fr and name:nl. And if user requests
> something that's not defined, at the end it will still fall back to name
> tag.
>
> What do you think?
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 2:39 AM Jo  wrote:
>
>> Since there is not 1 language for Belgium and nl;fr;de is not allowed, it
>> won't be possible to set this tag for Belgium. I did set it on the
>> regions/communities.
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> 2018-05-08 22:31 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :
>>
>>> Daniel, I agree - it seems most of the low-zoom Moroccan names are in a
>>> triple-form,  and many local names are in a wild mix of french only and
>>> multi-lingual ones:   https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yE5 (thx trigpoint &
>>> FredrikLindseth on IRC!)  Do you want to change it, or should I?
>>>
>>> Also, there are still about 60 countries without a tag:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:
>>>
 W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:

 > This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
 > tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
 > headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3

 What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
 Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
 just "ar"?

 --
 "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


 ___
 talk mailing list
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>
>>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Polyglot, thanks!  I just ran the list of names for Belgium -
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yEj (takes a few minutes and 20MB download).  It
seems that most of the names are single language.  Even cities tend to be a
single language strings, with a few exceptions (e.g. Brussels itself, and
the country name).

So on one hand, we could set default_language to "nl / fr / de" to match
the country name format, or to two languages that match "Bruxelles -
Brussel"  ("fr - nl" ?). But in reality, the most helpful value is just a
single "nl" or "fr" (?), because for almost all "name" tags, there is just
a single language. The country name is a very rare exception, but it has
many other name:xx defined anyway, so it is not a problem - if user
requests "fr" or "nl", there is a name:fr and name:nl. And if user requests
something that's not defined, at the end it will still fall back to name
tag.

What do you think?

On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 2:39 AM Jo  wrote:

> Since there is not 1 language for Belgium and nl;fr;de is not allowed, it
> won't be possible to set this tag for Belgium. I did set it on the
> regions/communities.
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2018-05-08 22:31 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :
>
>> Daniel, I agree - it seems most of the low-zoom Moroccan names are in a
>> triple-form,  and many local names are in a wild mix of french only and
>> multi-lingual ones:   https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yE5 (thx trigpoint &
>> FredrikLindseth on IRC!)  Do you want to change it, or should I?
>>
>> Also, there are still about 60 countries without a tag:
>> http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:
>>
>>> W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:
>>>
>>> > This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
>>> > tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
>>> > headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3
>>>
>>> What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
>>> Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
>>> just "ar"?
>>>
>>> --
>>> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Jo]

Since there is not 1 language for Belgium and nl;fr;de is not allowed, it
won't be possible to set this tag for Belgium. I did set it on the
regions/communities.

Polyglot

2018-05-08 22:31 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :

> Daniel, I agree - it seems most of the low-zoom Moroccan names are in a
> triple-form,  and many local names are in a wild mix of french only and
> multi-lingual ones:   https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yE5 (thx trigpoint &
> FredrikLindseth on IRC!)  Do you want to change it, or should I?
>
> Also, there are still about 60 countries without a tag:
> http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv
>
>
> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:
>
>> W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:
>>
>> > This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
>> > tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
>> > headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3
>>
>> What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
>> Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
>> just "ar"?
>>
>> --
>> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Daniel, I agree - it seems most of the low-zoom Moroccan names are in a
triple-form,  and many local names are in a wild mix of french only and
multi-lingual ones:   https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yE5 (thx trigpoint &
FredrikLindseth on IRC!)  Do you want to change it, or should I?

Also, there are still about 60 countries without a tag:
http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv


On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:
>
> > This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
> > tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
> > headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3
>
> What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
> Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
> just "ar"?
>
> --
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 08.05.2018 o 21:31, Yuri Astrakhan pisze:

> This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language
> tag (you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the
> headers).  http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3

What about places like Morocco? Shouldn't it be rather similar to
Belgium - "fr ber ar" (because the name is "Maroc ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ المغرب") than
just "ar"?

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Thanks to many people who have helped with this effort!

This query shows a list of regions that have the new default_language tag
(you can multisort column with shift or control clicking the headers).
http://tinyurl.com/yd6bx6s3

This query has also been added to the key:default_language wiki page at the
bottom.

P.S. same query, but with the last editing user included:
http://tinyurl.com/yatfd9sr

On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:02 AM Yuri Astrakhan 
wrote:

> Hi, most countries now have a default_language [1] tag, specifying the
> most likely language of the "name" tag in that region.  Here's a list of
> 60+ countries that have multiple official languages.  If you have local
> knowledge, or can research it, could you add the proper default_language
> tag to these relations?  Also, if most of the country uses one language,
> but some region uses a different default language, please set first
> language on the whole country, and the second language on the smaller admin
> region.  Do not set multiple languages, e.g.  "en;fr".  See
> Key:default_language wiki page.
>
> This query generates a list of admin boundary relations that have no
> default_language tag. It also shows country's the official languages per
> Wikidata.http://tinyurl.com/y9382ewv
>
> Wiki page:
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:default_language
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk