Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On 06:15:03, Matt Amos did write: > > i'm in favour of removing this functionality entirely. and the user > diaries too. there are open, well-written and (relatively) bug-free > versions of these sorts of software which we should integrate instead. > we could move the diaries to wordpress blogs and move the friends and > messages stuff to something like aroundme. why expend effort writing, > supporting and (trying to) secure home-grown versions? > Here here. Everyone wins here as far as I can tell, as long as we find the right implementation. The only positive that might be lost is seamless integration with the website UI. I don't know, do any of these third party offerings expose web services? I'd like to see this seriously considered. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Hi, Simon Ward wrote: >> Um it sounds like we need a system to report abuse rather than just >> making it public? > > I'm with that, and mentioned it already. Who should get sent abuse > reports? We could create a mailing list where these are simply dumped, and anyone who cares to work on these cases can register (and discuss) there. It will be an excellent opportunity to learn swear words in all languages if one is so inclined. But I doubt the usefulness of this feature. If you're a greenhorn and someone shouts at you, you'll most likely just think "this project is shit, I'll move on" rather than "oh, this experienced user has just shouted abuse, I think I'll report him". And if you are an experienced user yourself, then someone shouting abuse at you will probably make you discuss this on the mailing list, IRC, or at the next local OSM meeting, and you don't need the "report abuse" button either. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 07:41:41AM -0800, SteveC wrote: > Um it sounds like we need a system to report abuse rather than just > making it public? I'm with that, and mentioned it already. Who should get sent abuse reports? Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Matt Amos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> That's a very clear sign that we did something wrong by implementing >> half of an email system ;-) maybe we should drop that kind of user >> messaging and just configure a mailer to forward >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] to the appropriate E-Mail address. PS: wouldn't email forwarding become a pain when users can change their display name? and have non-ascii characters in their display name? cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's a very clear sign that we did something wrong by implementing > half of an email system ;-) maybe we should drop that kind of user > messaging and just configure a mailer to forward > [EMAIL PROTECTED] to the appropriate E-Mail address. greenspun's tenth law strikes again. to paraphrase: "Any sufficiently complicated [website] contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of [RFC2821/2]" i'm in favour of removing this functionality entirely. and the user diaries too. there are open, well-written and (relatively) bug-free versions of these sorts of software which we should integrate instead. we could move the diaries to wordpress blogs and move the friends and messages stuff to something like aroundme. why expend effort writing, supporting and (trying to) secure home-grown versions? after all, WP plugins like akismet and bad-behaviour go a long way to solving the diary/blog comment spam we've been experiencing. we should re-use them rather than re-implementing an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden and slow version of them :-) cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi, > > Tom Hughes wrote: >> I know this because the absolutely vast, exceedingly non gentle, four >> language reminder about using the web site to reply rather than email is >> ignored by large numbers of people every day. > > That's a very clear sign that we did something wrong by implementing > half of an email system ;-) maybe we should drop that kind of user > messaging and just configure a mailer to forward > [EMAIL PROTECTED] to the appropriate E-Mail address. I would second that. Personally I like communicating through email much better than through a website (which I only do if there is really no other way). It can still be possible to send an email from the website which would get the users.openstreetmap.org address as From address and thus hiding the user's primary address. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
I would like the see the messaging system open to the API, so that, for example, you can directly message someone via an editor or something about a particular map element. So mapping queries / advice would be public, and accessible from multiple areas. This would be be best suited to a public exchange. It would be a different system than the osm app user messaging system, which I'm keen to keep as is. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
David Earl wrote: > If you send a message out from the website send-a-message with a random > token in it somewhere (e.g. reply-to: > "token"@privatemail.openstreetmap.com, or subject: bla bla ["token"], or > in the message-id, so you can see any reply is a reply to a web-site > originated message, then you could capture the replies and insert them > as if they'd been done on the website. So long as they come from a known > member and they contain a valid reply token, I think the risk of spam > would be very small indeed. I'd certainly find it more convenient to be > able to reply to the emails, and we could remove all the other stuff > around the message which often outweighs the message itself. Yes, I have considered this, and one day I might do it. It is non-trivial however as the machines which have access to the database are not able to receive incoming email. > I wonder if we could even allow messages to be initiated by email (so we > all have, in effect, emails of the form > "username"@privatemail.openstreetmap.org or some such. There obviously > is more risk of spam, but if it is restricted to say one email per > minute and it has to come from a known email address, do you think spam > would be a problem? (It someone is determined enough, they can already > spam people: you just need a script to scrape the send-a-message pages > and you can already do it through the website.). I have thought about this as well, but I'm much more wary of this as we will get lots of flak about spam and things. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On 24/11/2008 08:38, Tom Hughes wrote: >> There could always be a gentle reminder when reading messages that: >> >> * There’s a wiki; >> * there are several mailing lists > > I can tell you right now that a gentle reminder will have very little > effect. > > I know this because the absolutely vast, exceedingly non gentle, four > language reminder about using the web site to reply rather than email is > ignored by large numbers of people every day. Most amusing are the ones > who carefully strip the notice off when replying without actually > managing to take any notice of it. Why not go with the flow here and allow replies by email? It's the natural reaction. If you send a message out from the website send-a-message with a random token in it somewhere (e.g. reply-to: "token"@privatemail.openstreetmap.com, or subject: bla bla ["token"], or in the message-id, so you can see any reply is a reply to a web-site originated message, then you could capture the replies and insert them as if they'd been done on the website. So long as they come from a known member and they contain a valid reply token, I think the risk of spam would be very small indeed. I'd certainly find it more convenient to be able to reply to the emails, and we could remove all the other stuff around the message which often outweighs the message itself. I wonder if we could even allow messages to be initiated by email (so we all have, in effect, emails of the form "username"@privatemail.openstreetmap.org or some such. There obviously is more risk of spam, but if it is restricted to say one email per minute and it has to come from a known email address, do you think spam would be a problem? (It someone is determined enough, they can already spam people: you just need a script to scrape the send-a-message pages and you can already do it through the website.). Capturing incoming email isn't too hard: the main issue is language encodings IMO. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On 24/11/2008 15:41, SteveC wrote: > Um it sounds like we need a system to report abuse rather than just > making it public? +1 If someone is being intimidated in private, how much more intimidating would it be if done in public. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Um it sounds like we need a system to report abuse rather than just
making it public?
On 23 Nov 2008, at 13:21, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to ask for a quick show of hands on the idea of making
> the
> whole built-in OSM messaging system public (not retroactively of
> course,
> but change it so that anyone can ready any message written in the
> future).
>
> I am not sure whether this is a good idea myself, that's why I ask.
> The
> rationale behind this is the following: We suspect that there is
> quite a
> bit of "new user intimidation" going on here in Germany, where people
> sometimes almost obsessively "protect" their area against changes and
> might, sometimes rather impolitely, challenge newcomers.
>
> Since this is not happening in public, the newcomer has nobody to help
> him, and anyone can basically say anything ("Haven't you read that
> pelican crossings are deprecated?") without someone else noticing.
> Being
> what he is, the newcomer will of course take everything at face value
> and go down a path of trouble.
>
> If all intra-OSM messaging were public (somewhat like a Wiki "talk"
> page), then even if only few people took the time to actually read
> other
> people's conversations, it would be easier for the community as a
> whole
> to get involved and protect its interests against individuals causing
> trouble, and knowing that what oen writes is public, people might also
> exercise some restraint when choosing their words.
>
> Another thing one could to if public messaging does not find favour is
> posting a caveat immediately over the "write message" text area,
> something along the lines of "if you're about to criticize someone
> whom
> you don't know, think twice and always assume good faith", whatever.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09"
> E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
Best
Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
I don't understand the direction of this thread. Frederik is talking
about "old users" protecting their area agains newcomers, not about
"new users" making possible mistakes. This happens through
intimidation through the private messaging system.
I'm also against making everything public. As already said, we could
then just remove this media and restrict the communication through the
wiki.
A possible solution would be to automatically insert a header in all
private messages with a link to a page explaining in short sentences
the 3 or 4 main issues of the project ("don't use copyrighted
sources", "methods to avoid edit war", "it's open/free", "search
consensus", etc)
Pieren
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Nic Roets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 11:53 PM, Nic Roets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > * When a person signs up to OSM, ask him a few multiple choice questions
>> > to
>> > make sure he has the mastered the basics.
>>
>> I think the barrier for entry for OSM is already too high, just
>> signing up probably deters a lot of useful committers already who'd
>> otherwise have made small and useful changes (see e.g. how many useful
>> one-off edits Wikipedia gets). Making new users undergo some sort of
>> test they'd have to study for would mean even fewer users
>> contributing.
>
> Well, in the section of the map I'm editing we're not like wikipedia. Casual
> users are much more likely do damage something than they are to fix
> something. And I would hope that they would at least contribute their local
> knowledge e.g. PoIs, but they don't.
>
> We don't (yet) have the revert and diff tools that wikipedia does.
>
> The test would be a very simple comprehension test that will not require
> studying or knowledge of English grammar. All the questions can be about
> matching photographs (e.g. a footbridge or a typical 4 way junction) to an
> OSM representation / tagging. People who fail the test can still use
> openstreetbugs.
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 11:53 PM, Nic Roets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > * When a person signs up to OSM, ask him a few multiple choice questions > to > > make sure he has the mastered the basics. > > I think the barrier for entry for OSM is already too high, just > signing up probably deters a lot of useful committers already who'd > otherwise have made small and useful changes (see e.g. how many useful > one-off edits Wikipedia gets). Making new users undergo some sort of > test they'd have to study for would mean even fewer users > contributing. > Well, in the section of the map I'm editing we're not like wikipedia. Casual users are much more likely do damage something than they are to fix something. And I would hope that they would at least contribute their local knowledge e.g. PoIs, but they don't. We don't (yet) have the revert and diff tools that wikipedia does. The test would be a very simple comprehension test that will not require studying or knowledge of English grammar. All the questions can be about matching photographs (e.g. a footbridge or a typical 4 way junction) to an OSM representation / tagging. People who fail the test can still use openstreetbugs. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 11:53 PM, Nic Roets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * When a person signs up to OSM, ask him a few multiple choice questions to > make sure he has the mastered the basics. I think the barrier for entry for OSM is already too high, just signing up probably deters a lot of useful committers already who'd otherwise have made small and useful changes (see e.g. how many useful one-off edits Wikipedia gets). Making new users undergo some sort of test they'd have to study for would mean even fewer users contributing. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to ask for a quick show of hands on the idea of making the > whole built-in OSM messaging system public (not retroactively of course, > but change it so that anyone can ready any message written in the future). This is how wikipedia does it, and it works for them. So remove message system and point to a user page on the wiki (if that user talk page could have email notification this would actually work) /Erik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Hi, Tom Hughes wrote: > I know this because the absolutely vast, exceedingly non gentle, four > language reminder about using the web site to reply rather than email is > ignored by large numbers of people every day. That's a very clear sign that we did something wrong by implementing half of an email system ;-) maybe we should drop that kind of user messaging and just configure a mailer to forward [EMAIL PROTECTED] to the appropriate E-Mail address. Would probably get us into quite some header rewriting mess though, and loads of people would disclose their E-Mail address without wanting to do so... then again, maybe we have our priorities wrong between community and privacy; we have seen this with the "make my edits public" thingie which, with hindsight, should never have been there - all edits should have been public for everyone. Perhaps it is the same with all this pseudonym stuff - "you can contact any contributor but in doing so your E-Mail address will be revealed to him" does not sound like too much to ask - you can't go to a mapping party without revealing your face either. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Simon Ward wrote: > There could always be a gentle reminder when reading messages that: > > * There’s a wiki; > * there are several mailing lists > > (with links, of course) where you can check and discuss things. You may > also want to have “report offensive message” (though that seems a bit > negative). I can tell you right now that a gentle reminder will have very little effect. I know this because the absolutely vast, exceedingly non gentle, four language reminder about using the web site to reply rather than email is ignored by large numbers of people every day. Most amusing are the ones who carefully strip the notice off when replying without actually managing to take any notice of it. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 10:21:44PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Another thing one could to if public messaging does not find favour is > posting a caveat immediately over the "write message" text area, > something along the lines of "if you're about to criticize someone whom > you don't know, think twice and always assume good faith", whatever. There could always be a gentle reminder when reading messages that: * There’s a wiki; * there are several mailing lists (with links, of course) where you can check and discuss things. You may also want to have “report offensive message” (though that seems a bit negative). Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Sebastian Hohmann wrote: > I don't think that making the messaging system public is a good idea. It > all has the feel of private messaging, that should still be possible. Agreed, why change this .. it's useful and expected (what's the law about all websites growing to support their own email system..) > With a system much like openstreetbugs, you could go to you area on the > slippy map, click the 'discuss'-tab (e.g.) and set a marker on the map. > That marker creates a discussion topic that can be viewed an edited on a > different page (could be the wiki or a dedicated system). Mappers > interested in a discussion in a certain region could just look for the > markers in that area. Discussion could also be shown as a list for the > current bounding box, to make it easier to find or follow them. There > could also be a rss-feed or email notification. All for integrating and extending OpenStreetBugs more deeply into the rails app, api, moving towards a geographic based messaging system. Couple that with "last-login" or "last-edit" and you can message with users editing in the same area right at that moment. With exponential growth of our community, we're going to need a little social infrastructure quick to support collaboration, etc. Nic Roets wrote: > I think we must take steps that will actually reduce conflict : > * When a person signs up to OSM, ask him a few multiple choice questions to > make sure he has the mastered the basics. I wouldn't want to answer questions just to sign up. We should be providing obvious support and introduction to the community. Does the email sent out to new users give a good overview and pointers? - Mikel___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If all intra-OSM messaging were public (somewhat like a Wiki "talk" > page), then even if only few people took the time to actually read other > people's conversations, it would be easier for the community as a whole > to get involved and protect its interests against individuals causing > trouble, and knowing that what oen writes is public, people might also > exercise some restraint when choosing their words. > And then we have vigilantes to take on the vigilantes ? Or we do research and come to the conclusion that there is conflict within the community ? Duh I think we must take steps that will actually reduce conflict : * When a person signs up to OSM, ask him a few multiple choice questions to make sure he has the mastered the basics. * Move the conflict to the wiki and deal with it there. The wiki shouldn't just be used to document the use of tags, but be used to set standards. Lock pages like Map_Features. (Gmail Goggles snip snip) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
Frederik Ramm schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to ask for a quick show of hands on the idea of making the
> whole built-in OSM messaging system public (not retroactively of course,
> but change it so that anyone can ready any message written in the future).
>
> I am not sure whether this is a good idea myself, that's why I ask. The
> rationale behind this is the following: We suspect that there is quite a
> bit of "new user intimidation" going on here in Germany, where people
> sometimes almost obsessively "protect" their area against changes and
> might, sometimes rather impolitely, challenge newcomers.
>
> Since this is not happening in public, the newcomer has nobody to help
> him, and anyone can basically say anything ("Haven't you read that
> pelican crossings are deprecated?") without someone else noticing. Being
> what he is, the newcomer will of course take everything at face value
> and go down a path of trouble.
>
> If all intra-OSM messaging were public (somewhat like a Wiki "talk"
> page), then even if only few people took the time to actually read other
> people's conversations, it would be easier for the community as a whole
> to get involved and protect its interests against individuals causing
> trouble, and knowing that what oen writes is public, people might also
> exercise some restraint when choosing their words.
>
> Another thing one could to if public messaging does not find favour is
> posting a caveat immediately over the "write message" text area,
> something along the lines of "if you're about to criticize someone whom
> you don't know, think twice and always assume good faith", whatever.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
I don't think that making the messaging system public is a good idea. It
all has the feel of private messaging, that should still be possible.
I would, however, suggest a different approach. Reduce the need for
private messages, by carrying most regional-based discussions to a
public level. At the moment you have to look up the user, open his page
and send a private message. If more than one user is involved in an area
you want to talk about, you have to repeat that for all users.
With a system much like openstreetbugs, you could go to you area on the
slippy map, click the 'discuss'-tab (e.g.) and set a marker on the map.
That marker creates a discussion topic that can be viewed an edited on a
different page (could be the wiki or a dedicated system). Mappers
interested in a discussion in a certain region could just look for the
markers in that area. Discussion could also be shown as a list for the
current bounding box, to make it easier to find or follow them. There
could also be a rss-feed or email notification.
Either way, the point is that many discussions are region-based (why did
you tag that way this way, how will we map this or that). Some
discussions could be hold on the appropriate wiki page for the
city/region, but not everyone always watches all relevant wiki-pages all
the time and it's not always easy to find the correct one.
Greetings,
Sebastian
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Re: [OSM-talk] Make Messaging public, or other changes?
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to ask for a quick show of hands on the idea of making the > whole built-in OSM messaging system public (not retroactively of course, > but change it so that anyone can ready any message written in the future). > > I am not sure whether this is a good idea myself, that's why I ask. The > rationale behind this is the following: We suspect that there is quite a > bit of "new user intimidation" going on here in Germany, where people > sometimes almost obsessively "protect" their area against changes and > might, sometimes rather impolitely, challenge newcomers. A halfway option? Show that user X sent a message to user Y but don't reveal the content? It would at least give you some kind of handle on it, if it's a problem. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
