Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Lets try another way round. Is there anyone who does not want a list for general tagging discussions? On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Joerg Ostertag (OSM Munich/Germany) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dienstag 29 Januar 2008, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list was a bit flooded by administrative voting ends, voting opens, comments requested etc. messages: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? I would love to see this seperated into a proposal lists. This would indeed make talk easy readable again. I personally don't really care about how the tags are defined. If I need any tag I'll take a look at the MapFeatures Page. This way I know that I always have aproved tags. It would even be more convenient if we would be able to add these approved tags to josm as default taggin-presets. But this will be a little bit in the future... If on the other side I want to use a Tag (for example for GPSDrive) I take the osm.xml from the mapnik-svn directory and this solves my problems for the other way arround. At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list As already said, I would love to see this happen. Being subscribed to this list too would give me the possibilty to filter proposals much easier from standard talk messages and this for follow both in the level wanted. or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). I don't think we really need this. Probably only a summary (once a week) of all the approved features. Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. Yes please! -- Jörg (Germany, Munich) http://www.ostertag.name/ irc://irc.oftc.net/#osm Tel.: +49 89 420950304 Skype: JoergOstertag ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Nick Black http://www.blacksworld.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (To say it without sarcasm - people cannot choose not to receive email based on the subject. They can choose not to see them in their mail client, which is a different thing. If people are to choose what they want to receive, you need an extra list.) Oh, are you sure? Because the way I read this page: http://www.esosoft.com/support/mailinglist/mailman/topics.html it is possible and it works fine on other lists I'm subscribed to. I was just suggesting that there is a technical solution for all the people who don't want to receive emails with [tagging] in the subject... Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
I usually agree with everything Frederick says, which saves me a lot of time not writing to the list, but this time politely disagree. I'd say hold off for several months at least. The formal conversation carries on the Wiki page anyway, why have the headache of another list and formal administration? - Tagging is still relatively immature and still goes off in unexpected directions which impact how and where OSM develops. It is therefore an important part of the general buzz of OSM and therefore belongs on the main list. - Announcing RfCs/voting on the main list has really breathed life into getting the effort of getting a progressively coherent, harmonious global core tag set that is at least partially understandable in different countries. - It has been good to get at least the occasional involvement of folks outside the 5 or 6 (?) hardcore. - The volume is not that high surely. In any case, it is artificially high at the moment as Robin tries to clear the backlog. - If you are not interested in the specifics, hit delete - the Subject carries the gist and the general message is usefully made. I understand the hassle of creating a new list or doing the weekly round-up, and all the downsides of people not getting as involved etc. Can I suggest a compromise for the moment? What about if people starting the threads could include something obvious in the subject which would enable people to filter them out easily? I have a bunch of rules on my google filter to separate these mails out, but they're not very effective because there is no clear structure to the subject. I'd suggest something like: [tagging] vote open for * Ulf has already been including [vote] and [RFC] in mail subjects, it would be nice to get something like this more ingrained. There isn't actually a lot of traffic from these mails, but they do cause a relatively massive number of threads which tends to drown out the rest of the list. Dave I agree with both above emails. Moving it to a separate list would be counterproductive and the volume of threads will reduce soon enough. Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
On Jan 29, 2008 12:13 PM, Michael Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:59 AM 1/29/2008, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list was a bit flooded by administrative voting ends, voting opens, comments requested etc. messages: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. I usually agree with everything Frederick says, which saves me a lot of time not writing to the list, but this time politely disagree. I'd say hold off for several months at least. The formal conversation carries on the Wiki page anyway, why have the headache of another list and formal administration? - Tagging is still relatively immature and still goes off in unexpected directions which impact how and where OSM develops. It is therefore an important part of the general buzz of OSM and therefore belongs on the main list. - Announcing RfCs/voting on the main list has really breathed life into getting the effort of getting a progressively coherent, harmonious global core tag set that is at least partially understandable in different countries. - It has been good to get at least the occasional involvement of folks outside the 5 or 6 (?) hardcore. - The volume is not that high surely. In any case, it is artificially high at the moment as Robin tries to clear the backlog. - If you are not interested in the specifics, hit delete - the Subject carries the gist and the general message is usefully made. I understand the hassle of creating a new list or doing the weekly round-up, and all the downsides of people not getting as involved etc. Can I suggest a compromise for the moment? What about if people starting the threads could include something obvious in the subject which would enable people to filter them out easily? I have a bunch of rules on my google filter to separate these mails out, but they're not very effective because there is no clear structure to the subject. I'd suggest something like: [tagging] vote open for * Ulf has already been including [vote] and [RFC] in mail subjects, it would be nice to get something like this more ingrained. There isn't actually a lot of traffic from these mails, but they do cause a relatively massive number of threads which tends to drown out the rest of the list. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
At 12:59 AM 1/29/2008, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list was a bit flooded by administrative voting ends, voting opens, comments requested etc. messages: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. I usually agree with everything Frederick says, which saves me a lot of time not writing to the list, but this time politely disagree. I'd say hold off for several months at least. The formal conversation carries on the Wiki page anyway, why have the headache of another list and formal administration? - Tagging is still relatively immature and still goes off in unexpected directions which impact how and where OSM develops. It is therefore an important part of the general buzz of OSM and therefore belongs on the main list. - Announcing RfCs/voting on the main list has really breathed life into getting the effort of getting a progressively coherent, harmonious global core tag set that is at least partially understandable in different countries. - It has been good to get at least the occasional involvement of folks outside the 5 or 6 (?) hardcore. - The volume is not that high surely. In any case, it is artificially high at the moment as Robin tries to clear the backlog. - If you are not interested in the specifics, hit delete - the Subject carries the gist and the general message is usefully made. Just my opinion! Mike Stockholm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Hi, I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list was a bit flooded by administrative voting ends, voting opens, comments requested etc. messages: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00.09' E008°23.33' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
On 29/01/2008, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list was a bit flooded by administrative voting ends, voting opens, comments requested etc. messages: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. i think the consensus was for both a new list and a weekly condensed e-mail, otherwise if there was only one e-mail a week, the time lag on people working on new/revised/old items would be huge who administers the lists? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Frederik Ramm schrieb: At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should either create an extra list or have one condensed voting issues posting per week (or so). I don't think that 'or' is the right word here. If we want to split these topics into a seperate list, we really need someone to write down the voting issues posting per week. Simply move the proposal stuff into a different list without this posting is probably a very bad move, since this tends to become the elitist circle that most people want to avoid (including myself). So is someone really willing to do the extra work to collect the voting issues posting weekly? I'm personally not, Robin maybe? Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion: Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. If we find someone, who is doing the above job we might start with this summary posting in talk, in addition to the current postings and see how it works out. Then move over the normal proposal discussion to the new list a few weeks later if the summary tends to work ... Regards, ULFL P.S: I could even imagine a real automated system that will do all the proposal/RFC/voting stuff, collect it and send out such mails, but this is way beyond our current developer manpower I think. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Hi, Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good idea to move to a seperate mailing list. Well in that case I'd say let's just bin the whole voting process and live happily ever after ;-) However, simply banning this stuff from talk ASAP just because you and some others might not be interested in - without thinking how it could seamlessly work in the future? I think it is not a secret that I am mostly ignoring the voting. My rationale behind this is: If people decide stuff that makes sense to me, then I'll use it anyway; if they decide stuff that does not make sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter environment I might have to spend half of my time shooting down nonsensical proposals or fighting for those which are good. I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in my eyes the easy things (what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture shops) should just be decided by the first person to encounter them, without much fuss, and the more complex things like a complete proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a vote. So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no. This leads to my view that the whole formal part - opening and closing discussions or voting periods, counting of votes, announcing results and so on, is really ... It's hard to find the right words without offending those who spend time with that, but I feel it is somewhat unnecessary, it is not the core issue. I tend to stay quiet about this because I feel that OSM is a project with a very wide range of activities for everyone, and if there are some who actually like these formal things, who like executing the voting process and so on, then so be it, I don't want to tell them not to do it, unless they interfere too much with my own freedom. But recently I think that compared to the relative un-importance the voting process has in OSM, the list is really overburdened with voting stuff. I would like to ask those interested in voting and formal discussions to either show some restraint or just create a list of their own, much like we've done in the past when e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED] discussion on the main lists was too much for a topic that few were interested in. Voting is not a central issue for OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00.09' E008°23.33' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
On 29/01/2008, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good idea to move to a seperate mailing list. well, if other people keep up with the rfc open, tag vote open, etc. categories i put together last week, it should be pretty easy to produce digests. we just copy whatever's there into an e-mail. i'll have a look at expanding them, see if the process can be reduced to a few clicks. sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have good, we don't want to lose people who do that to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in my eyes the easy things (what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture shops) should just be decided by the first person to encounter them, well, it's not always that obvious. or people may think it's obvious, but it's not. so we consult the wisdom of crowds without much fuss, and the more complex things like a complete proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a vote. So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process i don't know a better way. the more people get involved the better. per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no. This leads to my view that the whole formal part - opening and closing discussions or voting periods, counting of votes, announcing results and so on, is really ... It's hard to find the right words without offending those who spend time with that, but I feel it is somewhat unnecessary, it is not the core issue. don't worry, i won't be. no, really. we're all aiming for the same thing here i happen to think it's useful, partly because most proposals turn up things that otherwise would stay unsaid - i learn a hell of a lot reading people's discussions. even the ones that are complete bollocks at the very least, i think we're tagging objects a lot more descriptively/usefully than anyone else making a map, be that navteq, os, government departments or whoever, and that's a direct consequence of the way we discuss tags. as it matures, it's going to be phenomenally powerful and that only happens when people discuss the progression I tend to stay quiet about this because I feel that OSM is a project with a very wide range of activities for everyone, and if there are some who actually like these formal things, who like executing the voting process and so on, then so be it, I don't want to tell them well, i don't do it because i like it - i'm not that pedantic. i do it because i see a need for those tags. But recently I think that compared to the relative un-importance the voting process has in OSM, the list is really overburdened with voting stuff. I would like to ask those interested in voting and formal well, there are 200+ types of objects that people want to tag, with no idea on how to tag them, so they ask for advice from the group, and we need to sift through those to the tags that have merit. one at a time. they are important enough for people to want them, meaning we can't delete them, so we work on them gradually, over time discussions to either show some restraint or just create a list of their own, much like we've done in the past when e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED] discussion on the main lists was too much for a topic that few were interested in. Voting is not a central issue for OSM. well, that's how we create the tags you and everyone else use, so i'm not sure how unimportant it is, even if it's not central ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Frederik Ramm schrieb: Hi, Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good idea to move to a seperate mailing list. Well in that case I'd say let's just bin the whole voting process and live happily ever after ;-) Hopefully I'm too well behaved to answer this one in the tone it deserves. However, simply banning this stuff from talk ASAP just because you and some others might not be interested in - without thinking how it could seamlessly work in the future? I think it is not a secret that I am mostly ignoring the voting. My rationale behind this is: If people decide stuff that makes sense to me, then I'll use it anyway; if they decide stuff that does not make sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter environment I might have to spend half of my time shooting down nonsensical proposals or fighting for those which are good. Yes, I know that lot's of advanced OSM people work with the I know how to tag my stuff model that is nowhere else described as in their heads. That is all well for you if you ignore the problems that results of this. One example: In may 2007 when I started OSM there was a map features page with nothing but a list of tags but almost *no information* what these tags might actually stand for - a direct consequence of the I know how to tag my stuff model. As I've added descriptions to lot's of tags on this page, it turned out that there are problems in the way people actually use the map features (missunderstandings, inconsistencies, ...). These problems are not solved until today, mostly because of the I know how to tag my stuff model that is very hard to change once it's settled. By having a better description of the tags we add today - we hopefully might be able to avoid much of these problems in the future. I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in my eyes the easy things (what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture shops) should just be decided by the first person to encounter them, without much fuss, If you would follow the proposals, you would know that even those easy things are often not so easy as it first seems. But yes, I remember you are ignoring this as you already know better ... and the more complex things like a complete proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a vote. Why not and what's the alternative? So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no. Please have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features and see what's the result in not doing any such decisions: literally hundreds of unfinished proposals that are almost useless as it's very hard to find, read and use them. I mean, what's your alternative to find a decision if some proposal is a good thing and should go into the map features or better not? Simply add/remove it and wait for some nice edit wars? Wait for a year until people come up with enough data in OSM to realize that we have the same problems for the new tags as we have with the existing ones? I know the voting is not perfect and there will be wrong decisions that needs to be revisited. But the alternatives I've heard so far are causing much more problems and will take much longer to get any (and/or probably in the end worse) results IMO. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
I'm probably a 1 in 10 person because either a proposal isn't relevant to me or I trust that it will fly trough. A weely e-mail on talk would be the best so I know to check the wiki and not have so much e-mail when I don't check for a while. With a few headings, under which the tag name/wiki links are listed. With a description/note is nessecary. -Request for Comments -Voting Open -Proposals accepted -Rejected Maybe sometimes addtitionaly a section for proposals that have caused a lot of debate and/or problems. I suppose the problem with this is it really requires just one person, maybe communicating with the other people who are helping tidy up proposals. -- Gregory [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
Robin Paulson wrote: On 14/01/2008, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so - to which all tag proposals and requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for informal community chat? I am all for it. And I am still of the opinion that more people would vote if there was an easier voting mechanism. I had already implemented a prototype of an e-mail voting system, where proposals would be send in mail (in addition to be put on the wiki) and people would just have to hit reply and add a +1, -1, or 0 (abstain) to the text in order to vote, but got distracted later on. The results would then be displayed in a web interface. This would get us more than the usual 3-6 votes per proposal, I know that I would vote more if it were that easy. What do people think of this? Spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?
On 17/01/2008, Sebastian Spaeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am all for it. And I am still of the opinion that more people would vote if there was an easier voting mechanism. I had already implemented a prototype of an e-mail voting system, where proposals would be send in mail (in addition to be put on the wiki) and people would just have to hit reply and add a +1, -1, or 0 (abstain) to the text in order to vote, but got distracted later on. The results would then be displayed in a web interface. This would get us more than the usual 3-6 votes per proposal, I know that I would vote more if it were that easy. What do people think of this? sounds great, anything to simplify it and get more people involved i think that, coupled with the extra 'tagging' e-mail list, would be the way to go ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
