Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
Am 14.06.2011 um 15:43 schrieb andrzej zaborowski: > Hi, > > On 14 June 2011 15:29, Jonas Krückel wrote: >> >> Am 14.06.2011 um 14:29 schrieb davespod: >> >> Well, it would be nice and we could certainly ask for it, but with CC-BY-SA >> only the end product falls under the license and not the processed data in >> between. > > Are you sure? If we manage to extract the processed data, it'll be > derived from either the end product or OSM or both, so it needs to be > CC-By-SA too and there's no way around it. Yes, that's right. What I was trying to say is, that they only need to release the end product under CC-BY-SA and don't have to _provide_ any data sets from in between. > >> Once we move on to ODbL however, this will change and we will get >> the much more interesting 'raw' data. > > Which we can't re-use in OSM however. Maybe you should explain why not, because from my understanding this data would be in an OSM compatible license because of the share-a-like aspect of ODbL [1]. > > Someone on IRC mentioned that the situation would be clearer under > ODbL, too, but I think this is a false positive. Additionally with > ODbL Navigon may take the position that they made a produced work. Yes, their POI packages maybe produced work and could be proprietary, but they would still have to release the processed OSM data from in between, which as I stated above might be more interesting to us. All that is only on how I understand the license and I'm not an expert on this. Also, I think it would be appropriate to continue this discussion on legal-talk. -- Jonas [1] http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
Hi, On 14 June 2011 15:29, Jonas Krückel wrote: > > Am 14.06.2011 um 14:29 schrieb davespod: > > http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/Navigon-Add-22-Million-POIs-To-SatNav-Devices--1060.php > > An interesting development. If I understand things correctly (and assuming > CC-by-SA holds water for data), they can charge for these derived data sets, > but they would still have to be CC-by-SA, and so anyone who bought one could > then redistribute without charge. Does that sound right? > > A note on this one for everyone not reading talk-de [1]: > Ulf Möller, who has been a member of the OSMF Board and is part of the LWG, > had been given a test device by Navigon in order to check for correct > attribution. > He was also asked by Navigon to distribute a text file [2] to the community > which contains some basic information about how Navigon processes the data, > links to download the packages for free (CC-BY-SA compliance AFAIK) and also > instructions on how to install these files on a device. > > P.S. If they have de-duplicated these, as they claim, perhaps it is worth > getting our hands on as a resource for cleaning up the database... > > > Well, it would be nice and we could certainly ask for it, but with CC-BY-SA > only the end product falls under the license and not the processed data in > between. Are you sure? If we manage to extract the processed data, it'll be derived from either the end product or OSM or both, so it needs to be CC-By-SA too and there's no way around it. > Once we move on to ODbL however, this will change and we will get > the much more interesting 'raw' data. Which we can't re-use in OSM however. Someone on IRC mentioned that the situation would be clearer under ODbL, too, but I think this is a false positive. Additionally with ODbL Navigon may take the position that they made a produced work. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
On 14 June 2011 23:29, Jonas Krückel wrote: > Well, it would be nice and we could certainly ask for it, but with CC-BY-SA > only the end product falls under the license and not the processed data in > between. Once we move on to ODbL however, this will change and we will get > the much more interesting 'raw' data. So far everyone seemed to be asking if their use would be exempt under various DB clauses ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
Am 14.06.2011 um 14:29 schrieb davespod: > http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/Navigon-Add-22-Million-POIs-To-SatNav-Devices--1060.php > > An interesting development. If I understand things correctly (and assuming > CC-by-SA holds water for data), they can charge for these derived data sets, > but they would still have to be CC-by-SA, and so anyone who bought one could > then redistribute without charge. Does that sound right? A note on this one for everyone not reading talk-de [1]: Ulf Möller, who has been a member of the OSMF Board and is part of the LWG, had been given a test device by Navigon in order to check for correct attribution. He was also asked by Navigon to distribute a text file [2] to the community which contains some basic information about how Navigon processes the data, links to download the packages for free (CC-BY-SA compliance AFAIK) and also instructions on how to install these files on a device. > > P.S. If they have de-duplicated these, as they claim, perhaps it is worth > getting our hands on as a resource for cleaning up the database... > Well, it would be nice and we could certainly ask for it, but with CC-BY-SA only the end product falls under the license and not the processed data in between. Once we move on to ODbL however, this will change and we will get the much more interesting 'raw' data. -- Jonas [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2011-June/086724.html [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/attachments/20110612/4c4e868d/attachment.txt___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
That's correct. You can sell a product based on a CC-BY-SA work, but the terms of distribution must remain the same. So as in your example, they could sell the product, but then you can turn around and give it away. There's also protection in the CC-BY-SA against DRM: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_happens_if_someone_tries_to_restrict_a_CC-licensed_work_with_digital_rights_management_.28DRM.29_tools.3F In this case, I have a few thoughts, and I'm sure the people on legal@ have some more complete views than I do off the cuff... 1. Where is the line for derived work. If I'm a customer of this product, am I seeing aggregate work of OSM and non-OSM POIs? If that's the case, I'd think that'd be explicitly not allowed. 2. The OSM license only dictates the data not the software. So in this case, while we can accept the data and re-distribute it, we cannot effect the service itself. In other words, we can't decide that we want Navigon to work differently than it does, and accept any data file we want. This is where the issues get a bit gray. The license can't dictate the use of the software or the service, except in the case of the DRM, where DRM violates the license. Now for my own opinion This is where the community has an understandable split. Some in the community want the OSM data to be as unrestricted in use as possible. They'd like it to be under "Public Domain" (even though that's impossible), or the closest that they can manage. Others, like myself, don't, and see this as an interesting test case. How will Navigon work with OSM to distribute OSM data in such a way that does not violate either the letter or the spirit of the license? The ODbL would make some of this much easier. If the work were ODbL now, any DRMed distribution of the work would require the company to distribute a non-DRM version. In my view, the correct logcial step is, as done in the GPLv3, require that if they're DRMing the work, that they are required to distribute the keys to the DRM to allow the product owner to be able to insert their own data instead. That's my .02. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Navigon to Sell OpenStreetMap POIs Packages for PNDs
On 14/06/11 13:29, davespod wrote: > If I understand things correctly (and assuming > CC-by-SA holds water for data), they can charge for these derived data sets, > but they would still have to be CC-by-SA, and so anyone who bought one could > then redistribute without charge. Does that sound right? Yeah, that sounds right. > P.S. If they have de-duplicated these, as they claim, perhaps it is worth > getting our hands on as a resource for cleaning up the database... Anyone who pays to get the set off them receives it under CC-by-SA (or "similar) and therefore the data can be contributed back to OSM, attributed to them of course. -- Borbus. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
