Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
Hi I've been looking at this thread with interest and it is probably at risk of resurrecting the endless (?) debate about the use of foot-way, path etc. tags. Without expressing any personal view, to avoid reopening that debate, I would merely note that - rightly or wrongly - the highway=footway tag has been enormously used both for smooth paved urban and suburban paths (wheelchair / pram / shopping trolley friendly) and for invisible-on-the-ground rural or back country paths that are interrupted by obstacles such as gradients, gates, stiles, scrambles, etc. - and for everything in between. Equally, the highway=path tag has been used widely - but not often for the most urban paved paths. This is - whether or not we like it - the current situation. There have been many proposals for change, rationalisation or consolidation - some are very good, maybe others less so! Such is life. The use of the sac scale is - perhaps not surprisingly - mostly restricted at present to paths in the more 'challenging' rural areas - e.g. hill and mountain country, especially in continental Europe (again not surprisingly given its origins). It provides very valuable information for walkers in this sort of area - but (again unsurprisingly, given its pedigree) does not differentiate well at the bottom end of the scale between various kinds of 'easy' paths - e.g. (a) a well marked and signed path in a 'honey pot' region of the countryside that is unpaved and has stiles and/or gates that would make e.g. wheelchair or pram access difficult vs. (b) an urban paved footpath that gives access, for all classes of user, say, to a town park or a shopping mall. I cannot really make any recommendation beyond the usual one - dredge through the numerous wiki entries and the numerous threads on talk lists! I suppose that this has not been very helpful ... sorry! Mike On 19:59, nicholas.g.lawre...@tmr.qld.gov.au wrote: .. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. A footpath can be traversed by a weelchair, perambulator or shopping trolley? Regards, Nick *** WARNING: This email (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email without appropriate authority. If this email was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or email me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this email and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this email do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Maritime Safety Queensland or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** -- */Mike Harris/* ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
2010/3/12 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: .. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sac_scale for detailed classification. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: .. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sac_scale for detailed classification. So Roy suggests smoothness and you suggest sac_scale. Neither is really definitive. Whereas all I want is a binary distinction between a footpath and a hiking trail. There's obviously overlap, but the key point isn't a physical feature, it's a purpose: a footpath is the easiest way to walk from A to B with the resources available. A hiking trail is the most interesting/scenic way. Very similar goes for the distinction between a cycleway and a mtb path. A cycleway is designed to get you somewhere. A mtb path is designed to let you go mountain biking. The smoothest mtb trails are no different from rough cycleways. Anyway, how did we get onto this. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
2010/3/15 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: So Roy suggests smoothness and you suggest sac_scale. Neither is really definitive. I don't get you here. What do you mean by really definitive? By August 2009 we had 36770 occurencies of sac_scale in our database [1] Probably in the meantime it became even more. AFAIK it is the best dedicated hiking tag. Smoothness is used for different ways and streets as well and is often critisized for not beeing objective or well defined. [1] http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/sac_scale cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
.. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. A footpath can be traversed by a weelchair, perambulator or shopping trolley? Regards, Nick *** WARNING: This email (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email without appropriate authority. If this email was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or email me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this email and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this email do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Maritime Safety Queensland or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
2010/3/16 nicholas.g.lawre...@tmr.qld.gov.au: .. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. A footpath can be traversed by a weelchair, perambulator or shopping trolley? I'd say to estimate this you should have a surface-tag and ideally also a width-tag on the footway. In general I'd say yes, but in reality you can have almost everything. The only thing you can be sure about is that you can use the way for walking... cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
So mtb:scale=5 would be a vertical cliff? Have you seen the video that plays in the Blacks outdoor shops?? Yes would be the answer! Incredible. -- ___ Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way: Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com Powered by Outblaze ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
(PS I used the S.O.S (Spawn of Satan) tag 'path' , so I'm not sure how many of my trails will work with other stylesheets) path isn't Spawn of Satan! ;-) What is Spawn of Satan, here in the UK at least, is foot=yes. ;-) This is completely ambiguous, either use designated for a designated right of way or permissive if access is by discretion only. I consider highway=footway to be an urban surfaced path, and highway=path to be a rough, mud/dirt/rock, countryside path FWIW. But TBH I'm really focusing on using the designation= tag for rights of way these days, to get round these ambiguities. Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
2010/3/12 Mike N. nice...@att.net: Exactly - I'm just at the point where I need a high quality hiking / biking map in a relatively small region in the US. Maybe http://hikebikemap.de works for you? Cheers Colin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
Exactly - I'm just at the point where I need a high quality hiking / biking map in a relatively small region in the US. Maybe http://hikebikemap.de works for you? I like it as a start; the colors of the main roads are muted which is good. And I like the map legend which is necessary for visitors to understand the map. There are some other items on my wishlist: A regional view should highlight regional hike/bike routes.I like the dashed footway renderings within a park or between buildings, but the dashes are lost in the surrounding features for a regional 'greenways trail' for example. One way to do this is for any route relation=bicycle/foot/hiking , render in an 'important color'. Optionally, use the colour= tag of the route relation. Route planning - choose start / end or manually set waypoints to create a GPX track that can be downloaded to a navigator. This would include auto or public transport routing. A complete Garmin map download - I could probable rig this up myself with the Mkgmap toolchain. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
On 12/03/2010 10:23, Nick Whitelegg wrote: (PS I used the S.O.S (Spawn of Satan) tag 'path' , so I'm not sure how many of my trails will work with other stylesheets) path isn't Spawn of Satan! ;-) What is Spawn of Satan, here in the UK at least, is foot=yes. ;-) This is completely ambiguous, either use designated for a designated right of way or permissive if access is by discretion only. What about in Scotland, where you have a right to walk / cycle / ride a horse just about anywhere (so long as you are responsible), even if its not a designated right of way? Craig ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
Mike N. wrote: I'm very much in favour of improving both the quality of hiking data, and its representation (particularly outside Europe). But do make an effort to consolidate the existing material rather than just adding another layer of paint over the top. Exactly - I'm just at the point where I need a high quality hiking / biking map in a relatively small region in the US. http://topo.geofabrik.de/ has exactly the features and type of rendering I had in mind, but it doesn't cover the US and I haven't had time to dig about to see if any of it is open source. I'm beginning to check into a custom version of a Mapnik stylesheet and rendering. One option might be to tweak the styles used for http://toposm.com/ to better highlight and render hiking trails and paths. It's probably a good base map for hiking, and we're working on complete US coverage. Since, in TopOSM, the base topography and the map features are on different tile layers, it would even be possible to use the existing topography and contour lines, and make a custom layer that highlights hiking trails, paths, obstacles etc. - Lars -- Lars Ahlzen l...@ahlzen.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
Le 11/03/2010 11:58, Nick Whitelegg a écrit : Hello everyone, Thanks for the responses on this. What I would like to do this year is really try to bring together everyone on the list who is interested in developing OSM software (both web and mobile) for walkers (hikers) so that we can make a good go of exchanging ideas and developing software. To this end, I propose to add the new version of Freemap (0.5) to the main OSM SVN repository when it's ready so that there's a place where people can hack on stuff they're interested in. I think that in certain areas now (southern England and various parts of Germany) there's enough data to make OSM really useful for walkers so I think the time is right for a push on this. So I'd like to collect together a number of initial idea. I've started a template wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_for_walkers and feel free to send me suggestions via the Freemap blog or email, see http://www.free-map.org.uk/wordpress/?p=103 It would be really good to try and get together a development community and exchange of ideas for a walkers' OSM so I'm wondering - would it be worthwhile creating a dedicated mailing list? osm-outdoors or osm-hikers or something similar? Thanks, Nick Have a look at http://www.geovelo.fr/paris/ -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
I'm very much in favour of improving both the quality of hiking data, and its representation (particularly outside Europe). But do make an effort to consolidate the existing material rather than just adding another layer of paint over the top. Exactly - I'm just at the point where I need a high quality hiking / biking map in a relatively small region in the US. http://topo.geofabrik.de/ has exactly the features and type of rendering I had in mind, but it doesn't cover the US and I haven't had time to dig about to see if any of it is open source. I'm beginning to check into a custom version of a Mapnik stylesheet and rendering. (PS I used the S.O.S (Spawn of Satan) tag 'path' , so I'm not sure how many of my trails will work with other stylesheets) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
(And similarly, how to distinguish between a bike path and a mountain bike track). I added mtb:scale to mountain bike tracks. But around here, even the steepest, roughest terrain is only 1 or 2 out of a scale of 5. I think mtb:scale=3 is something like leaping off 1 meter boulders g (Only slightly exaggerating). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: .. I'm still unclear how one is supposed to distinguish between a smooth, wide urban footpath and a hiking trail. For smoothness, use surface=* For width, use width=* (And similarly, how to distinguish between a bike path and a mountain bike track). To indicate access restrictions, see: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access To indicate smoothness, or width, see above. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going!
So mtb:scale=5 would be a vertical cliff? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Mike N. nice...@att.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:51:00 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for walkers / hikers - getting it going! (And similarly, how to distinguish between a bike path and a mountain bike track). I added mtb:scale to mountain bike tracks. But around here, even the steepest, roughest terrain is only 1 or 2 out of a scale of 5. I think mtb:scale=3 is something like leaping off 1 meter boulders g (Only slightly exaggerating). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
