Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 1:06 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a
> number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A
> number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and
> inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.
>
> Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability
> to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be
> run but Apple don't especially like you running it.
>
> We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These
> days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too
> much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.
>
>
Dude I went looking for these so called security issues. I found nothing.
Java is just another language.  I think that you are mixing up Java,
JavaScript, or Active X in the browser with Java as a whole. [1]The
only thing that I could find is that you would have to switch to ADA.  You
cannot trust, Ruby, Java, or your beloved dot net to manage a rocket
guidance system.  The last time I heard something like this was when Steve
Ballmer was at Microsoft.  It is fitting that he retired from Microsoft and
bought a basket ball team.  Apparently, Steve Ballmer feels comfortable in
a court room setting.  ;-)

Regards,
Greg


[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1075.pdf

9.3.16.12 Mobile Code (SC-18) The agency must: a. Define acceptable and
unacceptable mobile code and mobile code technologies c. Establish usage
restrictions and implementation guidance for acceptable mobile code and
mobile code technologies d. Authorize, monitor, and control the use of
mobile code within the information system Mobile code technologies include,
for example, Java, JavaScript, ActiveX, Postscript, PDF, Shockwave movies,
Flash animations, and VBScript, which are common installations on most end
user workstations. Usage restrictions and implementation guidance apply to
both the selection and use of mobile code installed on servers and mobile
code downloaded and executed on individual workstations and devices (e.g.,
tablet computers and smartphones).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Paweł Paprota]

You are mixing so many different topics and misconceptions that I think
you basically don't know what you're talking about.
Perhaps you should read up on what is Java first...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Java_implementations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language

etc.

Paweł


On Sun, Apr 22, 2018, at 22:06, john whelan wrote:
> JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent
> a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.
> A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were
> dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.> Having said that 
> if we look at the requirements then we'd like the
> ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes
> it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.> 
> We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These
> days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is
> too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.> We have a lot of 
> existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have
> a lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and
> documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in
> people time.> Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it 
> needs a
> more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.> I have no 
> instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to
> think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a
> major security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is
> not known to be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens
> what is the impact?> It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by 
> running in a
> separate user account but that too complicated for many of our users
> to configure.  Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep
> their machines safe?> Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec  wrote:
>> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a
>> version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8
>> and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will
>> only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run
>> JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that,
>> yesterday).>> 
>> No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
>> Cheers,
>> Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 
>> 
>> Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan 
>> napsal:>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
>>> It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term
>>> Support means no new versions per three years.>>> 
>>> " Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as
>>> game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date
>>> commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the
>>> updates.>>> 
>>>  Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC,
>>>  will continue until the end of 2020.>>> 
>>>  As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support)
>>>  model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the
>>>  current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the
>>>  end of a three year LTS cycle.  ">>> Cheerio John
>>> 
>>> On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny 
>>> wrote:
 On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400 john whelan
  wrote:

  > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to
  > be out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free
  > licenses to expire.

 Source?>>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Apr 2018, at 21:34, Jan Martinec  wrote:
> 
> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version 
> upgrade.


+1, also jdk10 is already out and jdk11 expected in September this year, so by 
2020 java8 will be quite old.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[john whelan]

I think Fredrick's comments have merit.  We know a lot about what works so
writing code to rewrite it if need be would not be too great an effort.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 16:06, john whelan  wrote:

> JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a
> number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A
> number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and
> inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.
>
> Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability
> to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be
> run but Apple don't especially like you running it.
>
> We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These
> days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too
> much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.
>
> We have a lot of existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have a
> lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and
> documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in people
> time.
>
> Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it needs a
> more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.
>
> I have no instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to
> think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a major
> security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is not known to
> be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens what is the impact?
>
> It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by running in a separate
> user account but that too complicated for many of our users to configure.
> Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep their machines safe?
>
> Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec  wrote:
>
>> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a
>> version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and
>> Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work
>> with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526
>> on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).
>>
>> No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
>> Cheers,
>> Jan "Piskvor" Martinec
>>
>> Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan 
>> napsal:
>>
>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
>>>
>>> It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support
>>> means no new versions per three years.
>>>
>>> " Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game
>>> developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial
>>> customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.
>>>
>>> Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will
>>> continue until the end of 2020.
>>>
>>> As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support)
>>> model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current
>>> Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three
>>> year LTS cycle. "
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
 john whelan  wrote:

 > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
 > out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
 > to expire.

 Source?

>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[john whelan]

JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a
number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A
number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and
inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.

Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability
to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be
run but Apple don't especially like you running it.

We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These days
many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too much of
a security risk to be allowed to install it.

We have a lot of existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have a
lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and
documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in people
time.

Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it needs a more
powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.

I have no instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to think
things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a major security
hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is not known to be
highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens what is the impact?

It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by running in a separate
user account but that too complicated for many of our users to configure.
Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep their machines safe?

Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec  wrote:

> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a
> version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and
> Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work
> with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526
> on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).
>
> No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
> Cheers,
> Jan "Piskvor" Martinec
>
> Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan 
> napsal:
>
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
>>
>> It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support
>> means no new versions per three years.
>>
>> " Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game
>> developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial
>> customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.
>>
>> Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will
>> continue until the end of 2020.
>>
>> As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model
>> for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8
>> was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS
>> cycle. "
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
>>> john whelan  wrote:
>>>
>>> > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
>>> > out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
>>> > to expire.
>>>
>>> Source?
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Jan Martinec]

End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a
version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and
Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work
with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526
on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).

No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
Cheers,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan 
napsal:

> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
>
> It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support
> means no new versions per three years.
>
> " Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game
> developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial
> customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.
>
> Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will
> continue until the end of 2020.
>
> As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model
> for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8
> was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS
> cycle. "
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
>> john whelan  wrote:
>>
>> > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
>> > out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
>> > to expire.
>>
>> Source?
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 22.04.2018 um 20:26 schrieb john whelan:
We have some time to look at alternatives but it might be better not 
to leave it to the last few days.

I suggest that you have a look into the josm-dev mailing list...

e.g. look at this discussion: 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2018-March/007992.html



BR,
Michael.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[john whelan]

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html

It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support
means no new versions per three years.

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game
developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial
customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will
continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model
for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8
was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS
cycle. "

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
> john whelan  wrote:
>
> > Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> > out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> > to expire.
>
> Source?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM? - do not panic

[Jan Martinec]

First off, Oracle could kill Oracle Java Runtime Environment, but the API
of Java is open and implemented e.g. by OpenJDK  (currently also
Oracle-maintained, but not as easily killed.). Oracle could quit Java today
if it wanted to (whether this is an actual intent or just political
posturing w/r/t the Google lawsuit is irrelevant - killing your cash cow
would be a desperate move) - it would not mean that options for running
Java apps would disappear.

In other words, the sky is *not* falling: rushing to port the JOSM
toolchain to a different language would be extremely premature.

Best regards,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 20:44 uživatel john whelan 
napsal:

> Fewer applications are using JAVA and it looks as if Oracle is withdrawing
> from JAVA.  It was originally developed by SUN who were taken over by
> Oracle.
>
> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be out of
> JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses to expire.
>
> It does have a number of security problems but iD doesn't do have the
> tricks that JOSM does.
>
> Could it be rewritten in a different language?  How would the plugins be
> handled?
>
> We have some time to look at alternatives but it might be better not to
> leave it to the last few days.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan  wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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