Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. This is the real problem. While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Hi, On 05/11/2015 03:07 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Of the dozens of people interacting with Xxzme, none had the authority or position to issue such a *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*. What exactly constitutes a warning matching these three adjectives, or whether a warning needs to match them in the first place, is certainly subject to discussion. But I would say that having been banned once for a month already is clearly some indication that one is not expected to continue where one left off after the ban is over, or turning it the other way, is clearly a strong hint that if you continue you'll be banned again. I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. This is not going to be a problem I think. Xxzme is not a hard-to-detect vandal who changes the direction of oneway streets. If he pops up under another user name and continues his past behaviour he will immediately be found out and banned without further ado; if on the other hand, he pops up under another name and makes useful edits without intimidating others so that we don't even notice it is the same person, then he's totally welcome! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 11/05/15 09:39, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote: On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. This is the real problem. While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one? forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake account under a name like John Smith is just as easy as creating one under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified. Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people from using fake documents). On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual names, who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they are actually known as. I'm not advocating anything like that ... Just purely sticking a hand up to say can we have a bit more openness on who we are ACTUALLY talking to ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote: On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. This is the real problem. While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one? forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake account under a name like John Smith is just as easy as creating one under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified. Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people from using fake documents). On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual names, who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they are actually known as. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on community decisions via wiki talk pages. Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5844138.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' elena.valha...@gmail.com wrote: On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote: On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. This is the real problem. While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one? forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake account under a name like John Smith is just as easy as creating one under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified. Plus there's issues with some names I'm personally aware of, such as Mono (a mononym, her parents were a bit new age to say the least). Leaping Deer (I believe this to be a last name since police uniforms usually only include that) Blackbear (the first name of one of my friends, and one that causes him no end of grief since a lot of places will fill in his middle name as his first name, assuming that Blackbear is a nickname). Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people from using fake documents). On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual names, who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they are actually known as. See also problems with Native American or transgendered populations when dealing with Facebook, and compare to the furry fandom (whose members often have a pseudonymous identity separate from their work identity to sidestep drama resulting from common misconceptions about the community). Granted, my circle of friends has an unusually high number of people in both of those affected communities, so my sample is definitely disproportionately affected and is making Facebook an increasingly unpopular network among people I know (now if I could just get a few stragglers off that network to someplace that isn't such a universal pain in the ass for everyone, I wouldn't have a reason to have a token account hanging around). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
I have now written some justification for the ban, as I see it, on his talk page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Blocked_for_3_months My plan was to draw together various threads on his talk page and then write something like this immediately before banning him. I was in the process of doing this, slowly. But Firefishy beat me to it and banned him, largely due to calls on this mailing list I guess. I felt like some kind of evidence building was needed in this case, because (as I described at the link above) Xxzme has actually tempered his rudeness somewhat. The justification for the ban is not clearly pinned to one particular edit or outburst. It's more a case of sheer quantity of dubious edits he has been making. I would say that a user's talk page is a great place to draw together threads which build up the picture and help us to conclude that the user should be banned in a case like this. As it was, we had several different people spending a long time chasing around trying to reason with Xxzme and then clearing up after his mess. If more people linked to problems off this user's talk page, that might have been a smarter way to organise ourselves. I might have been more confident to ban him a few weeks earlier without needing to investigate so much myself. Not that a wiki discussion would ever carry the gravitas of a mailing list discussion of course :-) This is all very unusual. Actual wiki contributors (ignoring spammers) have only been banned in a handful of cases over the years. On the one hand this means it's worth spending a bit of time considering and justifying. On the other hand it's nice that we haven't had to get too heavy on process over the years. Harry - Original Message - From: Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015, 10:08 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on community decisions via wiki talk pages. Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5844138.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 11 May 2015 at 17:39, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 11 May 2015 at 10:08, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on community decisions via wiki talk pages. In that case: At what point was Xxzme advised of this? Or indeed any new user - I certainly never have been. Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia. I don't recall saying that we were (indeed, in another recent discussion, I pointed out that we are not). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk 1. If you know they're a wiki user - it seems the wiki is the best place to deal with the issue. They might not be involved with any mailing list. 2. Do you know that they understand your complaints or is there a 'language barrier' involved. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 11 May 2015 at 15:13, Harry Wood m...@harrywood.co.uk wrote: I have now written some justification for the ban, as I see it, on his talk page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Blocked_for_3_months Thank you. I've replied there, since my reply is addressed as much to Xxzme as you, and there's no certainly that he's yet aware of this discussion. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 11 May 2015 at 10:08, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on community decisions via wiki talk pages. In that case: At what point was Xxzme advised of this? Or indeed any new user - I certainly never have been. Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia. I don't recall saying that we were (indeed, in another recent discussion, I pointed out that we are not). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
That's the closest that I found right now: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xxzmediff=prevoldid=1160164 I don't know what falls unders base abuse, but although Xxzme didn't directly insult anyone since the last ban, he still wrote false or misleading statements in edit messages. Since this case has been happening for a long time now and has received a lot of attention, please communicate with the community about your related actions in the future. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5844082.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 10 May 2015 at 23:15, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. Xxzme had plenty of warning. I see no *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*; perhaps you could point me to it; bearing in mind my comment: I do not think discussions which might reasonably be interpreted as mere differences of opinion, as currently seen on Xxzme's talk page, suffice in this regard. Likewise the four-month old notice from January (where, I note, Xxzme's question went unanswered) -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Congratulations, Andy. On 11/05/2015 1:11 AM, Grant Slater wrote: Hi Andy, I no longer have sufficient time to administer the wiki and to review cases thoroughly. User:Lyx has done a great job in my absence, but he could use additional help. I am going to focus my available time on OSM hardware other operational work. Andy, I have now made you an administrator bureaucrat on the OSM wiki. ;-) To others: Check out Andy's credentials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing Kind regards, Grant On 10 May 2015 at 13:47, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 11:40, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the user. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. I do not think discussions which might reasonably be interpreted as mere differences of opinion, as currently seen on Xxzme's talk page, suffice in this regard. Likewise the four-month old notice from January (where, I note, Xxzme's question went unanswered) We might also consider imposing edit restrictions (e.g. You may not move pages; you will be blocked if you edit war; this will be reviewed after 3 months). Once a block has been made, I would also expect a notice to be placed on their talk page, stating clearly why, how to appeal, and how to request an unblock (You may be unblocked if you give a statement that you will not do X again). Finally since the current bock includes email disabled, cannot edit own talk page (were either of those privileges ever abused? If not, that part of the block should be rescinded ASAP.), it does not seem possible for Xxzme to discuss how they might make a return to productive editing. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 23:15, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Xxzme had plenty of warning. I see no *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*; perhaps you could point me to it; bearing in mind my comment: It might have been nice to have a wiki admin to this, but wiki admins are scarce. Xxzme wrote a page on the social aspect of OSM: then failed to live it. Of the dozens of people interacting with Xxzme, none had the authority or position to issue such a *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*. In a social and nearly leaderless project, the repeated conflicts with a broad spectrum of users serve as notice. -- I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 11:40, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the user. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. Xxzme had plenty of warning. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On 10 May 2015 at 11:40, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the user. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. I do not think discussions which might reasonably be interpreted as mere differences of opinion, as currently seen on Xxzme's talk page, suffice in this regard. Likewise the four-month old notice from January (where, I note, Xxzme's question went unanswered) We might also consider imposing edit restrictions (e.g. You may not move pages; you will be blocked if you edit war; this will be reviewed after 3 months). Once a block has been made, I would also expect a notice to be placed on their talk page, stating clearly why, how to appeal, and how to request an unblock (You may be unblocked if you give a statement that you will not do X again). Finally since the current bock includes email disabled, cannot edit own talk page (were either of those privileges ever abused? If not, that part of the block should be rescinded ASAP.), it does not seem possible for Xxzme to discuss how they might make a return to productive editing. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Ilya Zverev wrote: Who banned Xxzme in wiki a while ago? Please do it again. Seconded. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Please-ban-Xxzme-in-wiki-tp5843984p5843986.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Hi Ilya, Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the user. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme His last block was for a month. I have given him a 3 month block this time. Kind regards, Grant On 10 May 2015 at 11:14, Ilya Zverev i...@zverev.info wrote: Hi, Who banned Xxzme in wiki a while ago? Please do it again. Not only he abuses mappers, in part by deleting parts of their pages in private namespaces, he also renames and/or modifies in a bad way wiki pages that many mappers link to. E.g. there is no How we map page now. This is not his first time, so I propose an indefinite ban. No point in repeating past arguments, you all know what he does. Thanks, IZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Hi Andy, I no longer have sufficient time to administer the wiki and to review cases thoroughly. User:Lyx has done a great job in my absence, but he could use additional help. I am going to focus my available time on OSM hardware other operational work. Andy, I have now made you an administrator bureaucrat on the OSM wiki. ;-) To others: Check out Andy's credentials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pigsonthewing Kind regards, Grant On 10 May 2015 at 13:47, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 11:40, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the user. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. I do not think discussions which might reasonably be interpreted as mere differences of opinion, as currently seen on Xxzme's talk page, suffice in this regard. Likewise the four-month old notice from January (where, I note, Xxzme's question went unanswered) We might also consider imposing edit restrictions (e.g. You may not move pages; you will be blocked if you edit war; this will be reviewed after 3 months). Once a block has been made, I would also expect a notice to be placed on their talk page, stating clearly why, how to appeal, and how to request an unblock (You may be unblocked if you give a statement that you will not do X again). Finally since the current bock includes email disabled, cannot edit own talk page (were either of those privileges ever abused? If not, that part of the block should be rescinded ASAP.), it does not seem possible for Xxzme to discuss how they might make a return to productive editing. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
Hi, On 05/10/2015 02:47 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: Finally since the current bock includes email disabled, cannot edit own talk page (were either of those privileges ever abused? If not, that part of the block should be rescinded ASAP.), it does not seem possible for Xxzme to discuss how they might make a return to productive editing. Frankly I don't view the Wiki as an appropriate way to discuss anything and welcome Xxzme to discuss things on this mailing list if they so desire. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki
On Sunday 10 May 2015, Andy Mabbett wrote: In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock. [...] Please have a look at past interactions of Xxzme with users on the wiki and discussion here in the recent thread Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?) This does not come unexpected and the end of Xxzme's current editing pattern has been called for by a lot of people based on the clear impression from various sides that Xxzme is immune to any attempts of productive social interaction. There has been a previous one month block with no visible change in interaction and recently a lot of clear communications that Xxzme's behaviour needs to change but as Frederik put it short of a miracle I don't see that happening - which is an assessment shared by many. AFAIK no single opinion has been voiced indicating that anyone has successfully and productively interacted with Xxzme on the wiki. My suggestion to those with an admin position on the wiki is that if the ban is lifted after 3 months and if Xxzme continues editing then it is closely monitored if there is a change in social interaction with other wiki editors to avoid the situation getting again as unbearable and damaging for the atmosphere on the wiki as it was now. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
