Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
Hi Renato. I think we had a similar discussions some time ago on one of the mailing lists, but I don't find it currently. Some thoughts about it: 1) possibilities to do sth. like that in OSM: Waze uses recorded data collections from real users. Provided that these are real users and real traces, the speed estimation cannot be manipulated by anyone, and can be calculated from a big database by algorithms. This is not possible (or at least useful) in osm: what is the average speed of a particular road? at which time of the day? during holidays? at the weekend? by motorcycle or truck? . It might be possible to get an incredible complex tagging scheme for that - but you need a huge amount of data to be added and maintained to get useful data from it, so it's nothing for by-hand-work of mappers IMHO. 2) problems of manipulations: Living at a big street people often don't want to have more traffic in front of their sleeping room window than necessary. A legal speed limit is a fact - you can proove it's correctness and lying about it is "more difficult" and detected as vandalism if you keep wrong facts there. But an average speed is hard to measure, even harder to proove, and dropping it by 20km/h may lead an important router to use a different route - great; but there's no benefit to the user of that router, because driving there at night or only outside the rush hours he might have omitted the traffic jams, so the shorter route in fact may have been much faster. On top of that these data often change fast with construction sites, special events, holidays and much more. To summarize: I can imagine a system similar to waze collecting traces and statistical data about average speed, and I can imagine osm based routers that take this into account; but I don't think it's possible/manageable to include this kind of data to the osm database itself. regards Peter Am 26.08.2012 11:41, schrieb renato: Hi, I've been trying out the Waze android GPS navigator and the one feature I really find useful of it is that, in route calculation, it doesn't use the road speed limit but rather the actual average speed on that road, calculated from the data gathered from other users driving those roads. In a few days of use, I have discovered some new routes for places I regularly go to, routes that are less known but certainly faster (avoid traffic lights for example). Also the time estimates are way better than Osmand (the only OSM navigator I actively used, but I plan on trying other ones). Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought of it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that navigators could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated way of updating these tags by users using the navigator. just curious to know thoughts about this idea, cheers renato ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
Hello all. There are some services (proprietary) that show traffic jams and events that can slow you down here in Russia. The values are collected from real users using mapping application that sends speed data. This data is also used to calculate routes. This feature is very useful actually, and it would be great to implement something in OSM. However, I think it should not be included in static osm database using tags and values (because these values are likely to change rapidly), but use a different database (and different project maybe) that collects and shows on-line live data. For example, at rush hours we have many traffic jams, at night and on weekends we have none, all for the same street - and this live data could be used to calculate routes. On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:41 PM, renato wrote: > Hi, I've been trying out the Waze android GPS navigator and the one > feature I really find useful of it is that, in route calculation, it > doesn't use the road speed limit but rather the actual average speed on > that road, calculated from the data gathered from other users driving > those roads. > > In a few days of use, I have discovered some new routes for places I > regularly go to, routes that are less known but certainly faster (avoid > traffic lights for example). Also the time estimates are way better > than Osmand (the only OSM navigator I actively used, but I plan on > trying other ones). > > Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought of > it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that navigators > could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated way > of updating these tags by users using the navigator. > > just curious to know thoughts about this idea, > > cheers > renato > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
Pavel Melnikov wrote: > Hello all. > There are some services (proprietary) that show traffic jams and > events > that can slow you down here in Russia. The values are collected from > real > users using mapping application that sends speed data. This data is > also > used to calculate routes. > > This feature is very useful actually, and it would be great to > implement > something in OSM. However, I think it should not be included in static > osm > database using tags and values (because these values are likely to > change > rapidly), but use a different database (and different project maybe) > that > collects and shows on-line live data. For example, at rush hours we > have > many traffic jams, at night and on weekends we have none, all for the > same > street - and this live data could be used to calculate routes. > > On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:41 PM, renato wrote: > > > Hi, I've been trying out the Waze android GPS navigator and the one > > feature I really find useful of it is that, in route calculation, it > > doesn't use the road speed limit but rather the actual average speed > on > > that road, calculated from the data gathered from other users > driving > > those roads. > > > > In a few days of use, I have discovered some new routes for places I > > regularly go to, routes that are less known but certainly faster > (avoid > > traffic lights for example). Also the time estimates are way better > > than Osmand (the only OSM navigator I actively used, but I plan on > > trying other ones). > > > > Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought > of > > it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that > navigators > > could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated > way > > of updating these tags by users using the navigator. > > > > just curious to know thoughts about this idea, > > > > cheers > > renato > > > > > > ___ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk It could be useful to have both average-speed and current-speed information available. I agree, however, that the current-speed information should go somewhere other than in the OSM database. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
This sounds like a great open source project. What would be needed is a good map client for mobile that could hopefully get decent usage penetration. GPS from users would be collected and used to calculate average and, with enough data, current speeds. The GPS traces could also be used for updating or at least verifying the OSM database. Traffic data most likely should be kept in a separate database. Of course, this is what Waze is trying to accomplish. Google and other mapping companies are doing it too. Dave On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:10 AM, Pavel Melnikov wrote: > Hello all. > There are some services (proprietary) that show traffic jams and events that > can slow you down here in Russia. The values are collected from real users > using mapping application that sends speed data. This data is also used to > calculate routes. > > This feature is very useful actually, and it would be great to implement > something in OSM. However, I think it should not be included in static osm > database using tags and values (because these values are likely to change > rapidly), but use a different database (and different project maybe) that > collects and shows on-line live data. For example, at rush hours we have > many traffic jams, at night and on weekends we have none, all for the same > street - and this live data could be used to calculate routes. > > On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:41 PM, renato wrote: >> >> Hi, I've been trying out the Waze android GPS navigator and the one >> feature I really find useful of it is that, in route calculation, it >> doesn't use the road speed limit but rather the actual average speed on >> that road, calculated from the data gathered from other users driving >> those roads. >> >> In a few days of use, I have discovered some new routes for places I >> regularly go to, routes that are less known but certainly faster (avoid >> traffic lights for example). Also the time estimates are way better >> than Osmand (the only OSM navigator I actively used, but I plan on >> trying other ones). >> >> Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought of >> it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that navigators >> could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated way >> of updating these tags by users using the navigator. >> >> just curious to know thoughts about this idea, >> >> cheers >> renato >> >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
> "rn" == renato writes: rn> Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought of rn> it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that navigators rn> could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated way rn> of updating these tags by users using the navigator. Hi, See the following thread for a discussion of prior work on this subject in OSM (including code developed during a 2010 GSOC project). http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.devel/21542 -- Eric Marsden ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Eric Marsden wrote: >> "rn" == renato writes: > > rn> Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought of > rn> it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that navigators > rn> could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated way > rn> of updating these tags by users using the navigator. > > Hi, > > See the following thread for a discussion of prior work on this > subject in OSM (including code developed during a 2010 GSOC project). > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.devel/21542 There is trafficspeed.org which was announced back in January: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-January/061479.html Like any traffic system, it requires a critical mass of users which isn't there at the moment. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
Toby Murray skrev 2012-08-27 02:20: > On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Eric Marsden wrote: >> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.devel/21542 > There is trafficspeed.org which was announced back in January: > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-January/061479.html > > Like any traffic system, it requires a critical mass of users which > isn't there at the moment. > The down side of trafficspeed.ord looks to me like: 1) Only browser based. 2) Closed source. 3) Closed data. I'll be happy to be proved wrong all all three points. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Anders Arnholm wrote: > Toby Murray skrev 2012-08-27 02:20: >> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Eric Marsden wrote: >>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.devel/21542 >> There is trafficspeed.org which was announced back in January: >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-January/061479.html >> >> Like any traffic system, it requires a critical mass of users which >> isn't there at the moment. >> > The down side of trafficspeed.ord looks to me like: > > 1) Only browser based. > 2) Closed source. > 3) Closed data. > > I'll be happy to be proved wrong all all three points. Well there is an android app. I think it is just a wrapper around the browser that has the ability to prevent the screen from turning off. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=your.com.trafficspeed4 Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
