Re: [talk-au] Alcohol Free / Prohibited Zones
2010/1/15 cam_...@fastmail.fm: Alcohol prohibited: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/384683 it doesn't highlight St Leonard's Park. - Perhaps this is a bug I should file? (and where would I file it to?) I don't think child relations do anything/much... this isn't so much a bug as a feature enhancement. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Can you legally ride a bike through a Local Traffic Only area? The closest I could find, for Queensland is from: http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TrantOpRURR09.pdf 97 (1) Road access signs: A driver must not drive on a length of road to which a road access sign applies if information on or with the sign indicates that the driver or the driver's vehicle is not permitted beyond the sign. However, there's no explicit mention or definition of Local Traffic Only signs. Interestingly, the above clause applies to A driver. This is defined as: 16 Who is a driver: (1) A driver is the person who is driving a vehicle (except a motorbike, bicycle, animal or animal-drawn vehicle). (2) However, a driver does not include a person pushing a motorised wheelchair. So this would seem to infer that motorbike riders don't have to obey Local Traffic Only signs. Strange (and/or incorrect). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Roy Wallace wrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Can you legally ride a bike through a Local Traffic Only area? The closest I could find, for Queensland is from: http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TrantOpRURR09.pdf I 'read' the SA road rules and a search did not find the phrase local traffic so perhaps the signs are actually meaningless in law they appear in council minutes so perhaps its a local council job ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
2010/1/15 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: So this would seem to infer that motorbike riders don't have to obey Local Traffic Only signs. Strange (and/or incorrect). Motorbike riders are exempt from a number of things cars aren't, they're allowed to be in transit lanes without any other passengers, they're allowed in bus lanes, they can ignore most if not all directions on how to park (eg 60 degrees, 90 degrees, no reverse parking) etc, at least in Sydney/NSW, can't comment on other state laws. So doesn't entirely surprise me. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 7:56 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/14 Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti#2010_Earthquake_Response http://blog.ushahidi.com/index.php/2010/01/13/haiti-earthquake/ I'm not trying to detract from how badly off people are in Haiti... but nothing like this occurred when Australia had those really bad fires recently. There's an international charter On Cooperation To Achieve The Coordinated Use Of Space Facilities In The Event Of Natural Or Technological Disasters. It did get activated for the Australian bushfires but the USGS were the only ones to act on it and there's no published imagery: http://www.disasterscharter.org/web/charter/activation_details?p_r_p_1415474252_assetId=ACT-244 The Haiti response is a lot more open and thus OSM is able to gain the required access to help: http://www.disasterscharter.org/web/charter/activation_details?p_r_p_1415474252_assetId=ACT-287 If we could have helped with mapping, we would have. The CFA already have several GIS projects/officers to track and manage fire incidences: http://bit.ly/5SDJEg ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 06:56 +1000, John Smith wrote: 2010/1/14 Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti#2010_Earthquake_Response http://blog.ushahidi.com/index.php/2010/01/13/haiti-earthquake/ I'm not trying to detract from how badly off people are in Haiti... but nothing like this occurred when Australia had those really bad fires recently. Last time I checked, a bushfire doesnt change the geographical location of *everything*, like a 7.0 earthquake does. Im sure there were OSM updates in Australia after the fires of damaged infrastructure, but we didnt have roads and buildings changing their geographical coordinates with the ground shifting. David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, David Murn wrote: On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 06:56 +1000, John Smith wrote: 2010/1/14 Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti#2010_Earthquake_Re sponse http://blog.ushahidi.com/index.php/2010/01/13/haiti-earthquake/ I'm not trying to detract from how badly off people are in Haiti... but nothing like this occurred when Australia had those really bad fires recently. Last time I checked, a bushfire doesnt change the geographical location of *everything*, like a 7.0 earthquake does. Im sure there were OSM updates in Australia after the fires of damaged infrastructure, but we didnt have roads and buildings changing their geographical coordinates with the ground shifting. David Most of the mapping effort appears to be marking destroyed buildings. The original mapping isn't apparently good enough to be sure if things have shifted a couple of metres. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, Liz wrote: On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, David Murn wrote: On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 06:56 +1000, John Smith wrote: 2010/1/14 Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti#2010_Earthquake_ Re sponse http://blog.ushahidi.com/index.php/2010/01/13/haiti-earthquake/ I'm not trying to detract from how badly off people are in Haiti... but nothing like this occurred when Australia had those really bad fires recently. Last time I checked, a bushfire doesnt change the geographical location of *everything*, like a 7.0 earthquake does. Im sure there were OSM updates in Australia after the fires of damaged infrastructure, but we didnt have roads and buildings changing their geographical coordinates with the ground shifting. David Most of the mapping effort appears to be marking destroyed buildings. The original mapping isn't apparently good enough to be sure if things have shifted a couple of metres. correction http://www.opengeodata.org/2010/01/14/haiti-openstreetmap-response/ so lots of mapping gone into putting streets on the map but also lots of marking destroyed buildings ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Motorbike riders are exempt from a number of things cars aren't, ... So doesn't entirely surprise me. Interesting. So this potentially means all access=destination tags should be changed to motor_vehicle=destination + motorcycle=yes. Would be better to first get confirmation from government on the sign's meaning though... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
2010/1/16 Alex (Maxious) Sadleir maxi...@gmail.com: Technological Disasters. It did get activated for the Australian bushfires but the USGS were the only ones to act on it and there's no published imagery: http://www.disasterscharter.org/web/charter/activation_details?p_r_p_1415474252_assetId=ACT-244 If I were aware of this, I would have sent off some emails to try and asked companies to help too, because even though Australia is mostly mapped commercially, maps go out of date and most if not all commercial maps have lots of mistakes. In the case of a bush fire we'd need imagery just before the event since smoke would be blanketing any coverage of the ground. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] OSM in Haiti
2010/1/16 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au: Last time I checked, a bushfire doesnt change the geographical location of *everything*, like a 7.0 earthquake does. Im sure there were OSM updates in Australia after the fires of damaged infrastructure, but we Damaged infrasturcture is only one issue, having accurate up to date maps is useful for planning. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
Hi everyone, As I work to bring CommonMap to fruition I'm heartened that I'm not the only one that wants to see it happen. If you're handy to Brisbane tonight then come join the CommonMap association as part of the Samford Mapping Party (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Samford_Mapping_Party_January_2010) and vote to see it incorporated (http://commonmap.info/w/index.php/Association/Incorporation/Agenda). With reference to the blog post below, I'm just putting it out there that CommonMap is designed to be a place where that conflation happens. With your help perhaps we can be ready for the next time the world needs it. Thanks, Brendan http://geosquan.blogspot.com/2010/01/haitian-earthquake-emphasizes-danger-of.html: But OSM and MapMaker aren't talking and I think it is a big problem - if you want to help rescue efforts in Haiti where do you go to digitize? OSM? MapMaker? As it stands right now, even though the MapMaker data is free for non-profit use, projects like OSM can't use the data because there are commercial uses for OSM and the data belongs to Google, not OSM. The data is similar, but different, and needs to be conflated. Where that conflation happens, how it happens, I don't know - but I do know that we need to do something to fix this split before it gets people hurt. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
2010/1/16 morb@beagle.com.au: Hi everyone, As I work to bring CommonMap to fruition I'm heartened that I'm not the only one that wants to see it happen. If you're handy to Brisbane tonight then come join the CommonMap association as part of the Samford Mapping Party (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Samford_Mapping_Party_January_2010) and vote to see it incorporated (http://commonmap.info/w/index.php/Association/Incorporation/Agenda). I would have liked to attend, because I would have liked to discuss this further with you in person. As it stands right now, even though the MapMaker data is free for non-profit use, projects like OSM can't use the data because there are commercial uses for OSM and the data belongs to Google, not OSM. This seems like a spurious argument, ok your suggestion will allow both projects to profit from your data, but any additions can't be shared back with your suggested project, nor will Google share any of it's data back, unless it's in Google's own best interest, any data Google releases won't allow commercial use, so you still wouldn't be able to incorporate it. So Google gets free labour, and you get nothing in return... sounds win-loose to me. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 7:41 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/16 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: Interesting. So this potentially means all access=destination tags should be changed to motor_vehicle=destination + motorcycle=yes. Would be better to first get confirmation from government on the sign's meaning though... Does this mean we should tag bus lanes in NSW as motorcycle=yes? Personally I don't think we should do either, we're tagging what's on the ground, not what's on the legal books. That doesn't mean we can't make a note about this on the wiki. The main issue that access=destination (i.e. applying to all traffic modes) is wrong - it isn't on the ground, and (quite probably...) isn't even in the legal books. How should Local Traffic Only signs be encoded in the database, given that we want to tag the meaning of the sign, rather than the sign itself? access=local_traffic_only? I'd prefer [something]=destination. Or are you saying we should ignore these signs altogether? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
2010/1/16 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: The main issue that access=destination (i.e. applying to all traffic modes) is wrong - it isn't on the ground, and (quite probably...) isn't even in the legal books. I haven't seen any signs that distinguish between traffic, they just state Local Traffic Only anything else would have to be defined in law, so we are mapping what's on the ground, what isn't on the ground is what the sign means legally. [something]=destination. Or are you saying we should ignore these signs altogether? We're tagging what the sign states, what it means will vary between legal jurisdictions... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote: We're tagging what the sign states, what it means will vary between legal jurisdictions... __ but first we have to find out what it really means, and what are the restrictions how they compare to other restrictions which routers already understand certainly access=destination sounds more like an oxymoron to me I would have had access=destination_only we understand local_traffic_only because they are our signs, but what does a routing engine understand? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On 15/01/2010, at 8:45 PM, Liz wrote: so perhaps the signs are actually meaningless in law they appear in council minutes so perhaps its a local council job From my searching, it looks like councils are responsible for putting up these signs and I couldn't find any actual legal definition of what they mean too. I did find a couple of reports of requests by residents to get them applies to their streets, and those weren't about noise. They were about kids playing on the street and almost getting hit by vehicles, both cars and bicycles. On access=private, I'd say that foot traffic shouldn't route through there without foot=*. My understanding of private is that it means no access unless you have explicit permission from the owner, so you shouldn't walk there. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Victorian routes
Have begun adding OD routes (oversize vehicle routes) to the existing page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes. I also note there have been a few changes made to the page. Would appreciate all the help I can get on this, probably mapping the unmapped sections would be most beneficial, but adding routes where necessary is great as well. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
On 16/01/2010, at 9:32 AM, John Smith wrote: This seems like a spurious argument, ok your suggestion will allow both projects to profit from your data, but any additions can't be shared back with your suggested project, nor will Google share any of it's data back, unless it's in Google's own best interest, any data Google releases won't allow commercial use, so you still wouldn't be able to incorporate it. So Google gets free labour, and you get nothing in return... sounds win-loose to me. If getting something in return is what you want from it, then yes. On the other hand if you just want people to be able to use your data, then it's fine. People have mentioned this many times before but front page of the OSM wiki says The project was started because most maps you think of as free actually have legal or technical restrictions on their use, holding back people from using them in creative, productive, or unexpected ways. Share-alike provisions form a legal restriction on what you can use it for, holding you back from combining the data with other datasets under an incompatible licence. It's all a matter of tradeoffs and what is most important to you - being able to use it for whatever you want, or getting the most data in OSM. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 12:16 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: It's all a matter of tradeoffs and what is most important to you - being able to use it for whatever you want, or getting the most data in OSM. Well said. Funny thing is, they're not independent - i.e. making OSM data more usable for whatever anyone wants leads to more users, which (arguably) leads to more mappers... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
2010/1/16 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote: We're tagging what the sign states, what it means will vary between legal jurisdictions... __ but first we have to find out what it really means, and what are the restrictions I'm not disagreeing, but what they mean will vary, in general they probably aren't good routes to route down so unless you are going there it's probably best to avoid them. From what I gathered from similar threads in the past acess=destination is implied on highway=residential in some areas of Europe, and some routing software would treat it as such. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
2010/1/16 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 12:16 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: It's all a matter of tradeoffs and what is most important to you - being able to use it for whatever you want, or getting the most data in OSM. Well said. Funny thing is, they're not independent - i.e. making OSM data more usable for whatever anyone wants leads to more users, which (arguably) leads to more mappers... Everything works well in theory :) Anyway Brendon and I spoke on the phone for almost an hour, and there might be a compromise that doesn't require any input from OSM-F to make it work. If we can get people making editors to add tags to changesets based on your license preference then any PD data, even if it's changed later to become ODBL, can be collected. Alternatively you can just add a license=[PD|ODBL] to the changeset when you upload it, original I thought to add this to every way/node/relation, but the changeset might be good enough, as long as the code collecting only PD data figures out what is new, or only what is edited from existing PD data. I'm planning to add a feature enhancement request to JOSM based on this, but would be interested in what others think of it. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Florist apologises: A florist says changing competitors' details on Google Maps 'became an addiction'.
I wonder if the police would bother pursuing the matter if people were caught for the same offence on OSM... -- Forwarded message -- From: Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com Date: 2010/1/16 Subject: [OSM-talk] Florist apologises: A florist says changing competitors' details on Google Maps 'became an addiction'. To: OSM Talk t...@openstreetmap.org http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3234636/Florist-apologises-to-online-victims a case of the streisand effect? free publicity for google map maker? a salient warning vandals will get caught? ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:10 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 15/01/2010, at 8:45 PM, Liz wrote: so perhaps the signs are actually meaningless in law they appear in council minutes so perhaps its a local council job From my searching, it looks like councils are responsible for putting up these signs and I couldn't find any actual legal definition of what they mean too. I did find a couple of reports of requests by residents to get them applies to their streets, and those weren't about noise. They were about kids playing on the street and almost getting hit by vehicles, both cars and bicycles. Interesting, can you post a link? As a cyclist, it never occurred to me to avoid these streets - if anything, I preferred them, as they tend to be quiet, and often quite interesting. For the time being, it might be best to tag them with a specific local_traffic_only=yes or something, so we know exactly what is being encoded. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 2:43 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: If we can get people making editors to add tags to changesets based on your license preference then any PD data, even if it's changed later to become ODBL, can be collected. ... the changeset might be good enough, as long as the code collecting only PD data figures out what is new, or only what is edited from existing PD data. Interesting. But the catch is, as you say, only what is edited from existing PD data. And if you have different mappers using different licenses, wouldn't that make it harder for companies like nearmap to say we give OSM license to trace from our stuff? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: For the time being, it might be best to tag them with a specific local_traffic_only=yes or something, so we know exactly what is being encoded. +1. I've emailed QLD gov and Brisbane CC about what the signs mean, though I'm not holding my breath for a response... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] access=destination
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:10 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 15/01/2010, at 8:45 PM, Liz wrote: so perhaps the signs are actually meaningless in law they appear in council minutes so perhaps its a local council job From my searching, it looks like councils are responsible for putting up these signs and I couldn't find any actual legal definition of what they mean too. I did find a couple of reports of requests by residents to get them applies to their streets, and those weren't about noise. They were about kids playing on the street and almost getting hit by vehicles, both cars and bicycles. Interesting, can you post a link? As a cyclist, it never occurred to me to avoid these streets - if anything, I preferred them, as they tend to be quiet, and often quite interesting. For the time being, it might be best to tag them with a specific local_traffic_only=yes or something, so we know exactly what is being encoded. Steve A [favourite search engine] search for local traffic only gives 844,000 overall so far I have found that local traffic only is not enforceable in Ontario, Ohio and that they are Local Council decisions in NSW, Qld, SA. they may be for special events eg V8 supercars in Townsville last year, or permanent for traffic reduction - excess cars down side streets with any type of resident complaint every example is stuck inside a pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Haitian Earthquake Emphasizes Danger of a Split Geo Community
2010/1/16 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: Interesting. But the catch is, as you say, only what is edited from existing PD data. And if you have different mappers using different If that's too much of a limitation then more drastic action would be needed, nothing will please everyone all the time. licenses, wouldn't that make it harder for companies like nearmap to say we give OSM license to trace from our stuff? This is a completely different issue, and it will be a limitation no matter if this is done through the existing OSM frame work or not. With regard to licensing, and even if Nearmap objects to having derived data made available as PD that doesn't stop other companies or government agencies from allowing derived data to be released as PD. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
