Re: [talk-au] Intersections
I've just done a pass over the area and hopefully fixed a lot of issues. Hope no-one minds that I've ripped out a lot of the unnecessary ways. Found a couple of oneways pointing to dead ends, not to mention roads crossing without junctions. Turns out they went for several km's up Burwood Highway from Knox shopping centre toward Belgrave. I'll check back when keepright updates and see if I've stuffed anything up in the process. On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 6:45 PM, i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Gday Ross - Good news is there are mappers out there who'd love the challenge of fixing this intersection up, so instead of letting this bring you down, I think a better idea is to report this on openstreetbugs. The Melbourne region is 'clean' of bugs which to me indicates either nobody reports them, or somebody does a great job at fixing them. Also I read somewhere that OSM encourages contributors to be bold when it comes to fixing others mistakes, so I wouldn't hesitate to dive in and get your hands dirty if you're keen. Well aware of this, but there's only so much time. Currently I'm eradicating all oneway=-1 within Australia. Reversing the way and changing it to oneway=yes. Came across these intersections while doing this. Cheers, Ben PS - my first post to the list. Please forgive me if I've not followed some special protocol. Well done and welcome. Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Intersections
Oh crap, i've just discovered the same thing at the junction of Mountain Highway, Wantirna Road and Boronia Road. Backup please! On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Leon Kernan lker...@gmail.com wrote: I've just done a pass over the area and hopefully fixed a lot of issues. Hope no-one minds that I've ripped out a lot of the unnecessary ways. Found a couple of oneways pointing to dead ends, not to mention roads crossing without junctions. Turns out they went for several km's up Burwood Highway from Knox shopping centre toward Belgrave. I'll check back when keepright updates and see if I've stuffed anything up in the process. On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 6:45 PM, i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Gday Ross - Good news is there are mappers out there who'd love the challenge of fixing this intersection up, so instead of letting this bring you down, I think a better idea is to report this on openstreetbugs. The Melbourne region is 'clean' of bugs which to me indicates either nobody reports them, or somebody does a great job at fixing them. Also I read somewhere that OSM encourages contributors to be bold when it comes to fixing others mistakes, so I wouldn't hesitate to dive in and get your hands dirty if you're keen. Well aware of this, but there's only so much time. Currently I'm eradicating all oneway=-1 within Australia. Reversing the way and changing it to oneway=yes. Came across these intersections while doing this. Cheers, Ben PS - my first post to the list. Please forgive me if I've not followed some special protocol. Well done and welcome. Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Intersections
Well now they are doing it to Canberra too: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-35.282325lon=149.147432zoom=19 I've sent them a message to ask them to stop doing it so we will see. Cheers Ross On 28/11/11 13:56, Leon Kernan wrote: (Sorry, forgot to cc the list) Wow, that wasn't that bad last time i looked though there. They haven't even bothered to put in oneway tags and in at least one intersection, have created ways for every direction except straight through the intersection! Has anyone contacted them yet? If no-one beats me to it, i'll try and and do some correcting around there tonight. On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:55 PM, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com mailto:snow...@gmx.com wrote: On 27/11/11 11:59, Ross Scanlon wrote: Just reading this: https://docs.google.com/a/__osmfoundation.org/document/__pub?id=__1zMm5p70Hd6dalxte42DVCGAW-__C9Muy0pjHCZ8xWJT4w https://docs.google.com/a/osmfoundation.org/document/pub?id=1zMm5p70Hd6dalxte42DVCGAW-C9Muy0pjHCZ8xWJT4w While people still continue to map garbage like these intersections: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?__lat=-37.882577lon=145.276362__zoom=18 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.882577lon=145.276362zoom=18 then people will not want to use osm data at all. It's not immeditately apparent on the map but load it into josm or potlatch and look at all the non existant ways, reversed direction ways and just plain wrong ways. And lots of lanes entered as distinct ways (implying that one can't change lanes), when it's a lane count that would be appropriate. What a mess. I'm tempted to put my Garmin GPS into simulation mode and have it simulate various entry and exit combinations. But I already know it'd be a dog's breakfast. If that was in my area I'd be inclined to fix it up and put in some note tags explaining why. John H _ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.__org/listinfo/talk-au http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Intersections
Luke Wrote I've backed you up on that one. All removed! I have no idea what their logic is behind (wrongly) mapping non-separated turning lanes in the first place! Hi Luke, Do you think that he may be upset at losing the railway station naming edit war a while back and may be trying to get his own back. I seem to remember that, at the time, someone said that he didn't respond kindly to questions about his edits. I really hope that he has changed his attitude but seeing as he is so meticulous a person, the gross errors of his lane edits and the complete lack of any connectivity leave me quite suspicious. I hope I'm wrong, though!! Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
Ok lets look at one intersection: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2lat=-37.757227lon=145.354724zoom=18 This will open in potlatch 2 or you can view it here on the map: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.75735lon=145.355389zoom=18 ways 136173430, 13673431, 13673419, 13673432 These are not separate ways, they are lanes within the main way. If they were ways then they are not two way streets. Someone who is not from Australia (eg USA where they drive on the opposite side of the road) who was to follow this would end up facing on coming traffic on the wrong side of the road. They have intersections with other ways without intersection nodes. You complain about the chunkiness and messiness of the current data yet the information you have entered aside from being totally incorrect is absolutly useless to any body. Try looking at these intersections on a small garmin gps screen and then try to navigate through them. The problems you point out below are not data problems they are rendering issues and you are mapping incorrectly for the renderer. If you want these to display differently then modify the renderer don't put in incorrect data. These do not reflect reality as currently there, remember it is a map not a photorealistic representation of what is on the ground. If you want photorealistic representation then use nearmap or bing or google. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Don%27t_tag_for_the_renderer Cheers Ross On 28/11/11 21:12, Supt_of_Printing wrote: Hi Rosscoe, Supt_of_Printing has sent you a message through OpenStreetMap with the subject intersections: == Well if someone can explain to me what is actually wrong with smoothing out the chunky jagged curves on intersections, the useless street names on slip lanes, etc., the useless over-abundance of directional arrows for every little bit of the intersection where the direction is quite obvious (making the intersection look messy), crossovers in median strips matching the intersecting roads rather than the road it is actually in, etc., etc., etc., I may get it! But surely the aim is to give a professional and clear non-confusing look to the roads on the finished product rather than how it looks on the potlatch editing mode. I would rather the editing mode looks like a bit of a dog's breakfast so that the finished product doesn't! And yes, I have read the thread on intersections. Perhaps someone can point me to the rules that saysquot;there should only be two through carriage ways in both directions and the slip ways at the sidesquot; as this doesn't reflect reality, as there is not two through carriage ways with a big squarequot;islandquot; in the centre of the intersection on the ground. I will continue to edit to get the roads and intersections to look professional, reflecting reality, rather than the confusing, chunky rendering with an over-abundance of arrows and street names that I so often come across. Supt_of_Printing == You can also read the message at http://www.openstreetmap.org/message/read/226965 and you can reply at http://www.openstreetmap.org/message/reply/226965 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
On 29/11/2011, at 3:20 PM, nicholas.g.lawre...@tmr.qld.gov.au wrote: I will continue to edit to get the roads and intersections to look professional, reflecting reality, rather than the confusing, chunky rendering with an over-abundance of arrows and street names that I so often come across. I for one don't want an OSM which looks pretty, but is useless! The reality we seek is utilitarian, not just aesthetic. John H Sounds like a data vs rendering issue? You want the data for routing, but the rendering should still look pretty. nick Recently I read a suggestion for zoom hinting tags to assist / override renderers in deciding whether certain elements should be visible at certain zoom levels. Adopting an assisted rendering approach to hide various ugliness could be a step toward having the best of both worlds. Not only with road elements, POIs, but also place names. Here's a perfect example - it's my understanding that small, isolated regional townships in remote areas of Australia need to be tagged as towns or cities, despite their population being that of a village. E.g. the township of Tennant Creek, NT is tagged City, though it's population is only 3,500 (2005 data). The OSM wiki suggests a population centre of 100,000+ is a City. However, we need to break these rules in order to put small but important isolated townships on the map, so it's a case where tagging for the renderer is accepted, but it's something that I'm not comfortable with and is a perfect example to demonstrate a need for assisted rendering tags. Imagine a tourist... off to see the City of Tennant Creek because OSM told them it's a major population centre... and they arrive to find a truckstop and a pub! :-) BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
On Tue, November 29, 2011 1:47 pm, Ben Johnson wrote: However, we need to break these rules in order to put small but important isolated townships on the map, so it's a case where tagging for the renderer is accepted, but it's something that I'm not comfortable with and is a perfect example to demonstrate a need for assisted rendering tags. I think you've hit the crux of it there, though: that we don't necessarily need to be tagging for the renderer, but rather tagging to indicate *importance* (which is obviously something quite different from population or whatever other quantitative tag is used), and then letting the renders make sense of that. Air strips fall into the reverse category quite often, I think (there's some part of Texas I think it was, that I was looking at a little while ago, and at one zoom level it looked like the whole countryside was covered in airports and no towns!). - Sam. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: ... However, we need to break these rules in order to put small but important isolated townships on the map, so it's a case where tagging for the renderer is accepted, ... Well it's not accepted by me - IMHO you just need some more tags to express the information you want: place=township place:important=yes (perhaps not necessary, but hopefully you get the gist) place:isolated=yes Then, if a renderer wants to put small but important isolated townships on the map, it can! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
Ben wrote... Well it's not accepted by me - IMHO you just need some more tags to express the information you want: At this years SOTM there was a brilliant talk about OSM Landmarks. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SotM_2011_session:_Landmarks_in_OSM (unfortunately I can't find the online notes yet). I can't help thinking that Landmarks would solve this plus lots of other issues. I'll put together a post (next week) of my recollections of and my understanding of this talk. I think it's really important since it has completly changed the way I will be mapping in future. Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
