Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets

[Ross Scanlon]

They are not mini-roundabouts if you can not drive over them.

Look here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout

Also read the Australian Tagging Guidelines here:

wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines

mini_roundabout is not determined by size.

Australia does not have mini roundabouts, road rules require you to 
drive around the center island unless it is impractical to do so, ie 
truck, bus.


Have a look through here:

http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Australia-f5416966.html

you'll see numerous discussions and the Australian Tagging Guidelines 
above are a reflection of these.


Cheers
Ross

On 19/09/12 16:15, Brett Russell wrote:

Hi

I can assure you that the Devonport City Council is in love with
converting standard intersections into min round-abouts with high raised
flower beds which means unless you drive a tank your vehicle is going to
get hurt. Most have a large mountable curb areas for trucks and buses
but as mentioned a solid inner. In fact any barrier or road side
furniture is being put in at a rate that makes you think that the city
engineer has shares in these companies. I will leave it up to letters to
the paper to describe the residents views of such things but they do exist.

Cheers


Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:22:25 +1000
From: slh...@gmail.com
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets

I've seen it flatly stated that Australia didn't have any real
mini-roundabouts. That may have been true once, but the last few new
roundabouts I've seen built near me have all been either true mini
roundabouts (nothing but paint) or a couple where there is a raised
centre concrete disc, but it's only raised about a cm, and is fully
traversable. I'm not sure why they've started appearing.


Stephen


On 15 September 2012 22:26, Nick Hocking mailto:nick.hock...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Brett,
You've just said a *really" controversial phrase (mini roundabouts).
In Australia there is a *LOT* of history surrounding these things.
I do have a definite opinion on them but I reckon it would be best
(if not unbearably tedious) for you to read the many vitiolic posts
on this subject on talk-au.
Cheers
Nick

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Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi Ken,

On 19/09/12 11:57, Ken Self wrote:
>> In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common
boundaries
> with one another and the multipolygons close off properly. Those are pretty
> much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few manual errors creep
> in but they are easily fixed.
> 
> As I understand it from the ABS website
> http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad00818509?o
> pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries

... that document is for the 2006 census boundaries.

For the 2011 ASGS, the Non-ABS structures data is at
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July%202011?OpenDocument

With the documentation at
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/subscriber.nsf/log?openagent&1270055003_oct%202011.pdf&1270.0.55.003&Publication&469CDA45CE2B94CCCA257937000D966F&&July%202011&31.10.2011&Previous

it states that the LGA boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, "are
an ABS approximation of officially gazetted LGAs as defined by each
State and Territory (S/T) Local Government Department."

Which is good enough for most purposes, and a good starting point for
later corrections.

I suppose that raises an interesting point, that in true OSM spirit if
on the ground data indicates an area is LGA X (eg. street sign
branding), but the "official" gazetted boundaries say otherwise, OSM
should primarily contain what's on the ground, rather than the
"official" one.

Again quoting from that document, the suburb boundaries which form part
of the ASGS 2011, "are an ABS approximation of localities gazetted by
the Geographical Place Name authority in each State and Territory (S/T).
Since 1996 these boundaries have been formalised for most areas of
Australia through a program coordinated by the Committee for
Geographical Names in Australasia (CGNA) under the umbrella of the
Intergovernmental Committee On Surveying and Mapping (ISCM). SSCs are
built from Statistical Area Level 1 (SA1) that, singly or in
combination, form an approximation of Gazetted Localities."

> The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections that is
> ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on
> http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but not sure
> if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS boundaries.

No you cannot gather information from those maps and transfer it into OSM.

Those maps are Copyright All rights reserved. And the golden OSM rule is
don't copy from other maps unless they are released under a compatible
license.



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Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets

[Michael James]

On 09/19/2012 04:35 PM, Ross Scanlon wrote:
> They are not mini-roundabouts if you can not drive over them.
> 
> Look here:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout
> 
> Also read the Australian Tagging Guidelines here:
> 
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines
> 
> mini_roundabout is not determined by size.
> 
> Australia does not have mini roundabouts, road rules require you to
> drive around the center island unless it is impractical to do so, ie
> truck, bus.

According to the tagging guidelines for mini roundabout this is one :-

http://goo.gl/maps/8WAZ6

Are you saying it isn't?

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Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries

[Michael Collinson]

FYI, Franc was kind enough to let me have a copy of his original Perl 
import script.  Email me if you want a copy.  However, and I think Franc 
would agree, I understand it has really been superceded by the 
capabilities of ogr2osm.  Emilie Laffray said to me in email, "If it is 
done properly (and data is good), ogr2osm would remove duplicate nodes, 
merges ways etc... A little inspection of data should provide us this."


On the discussion of whether it is actually a good idea, my mild 
suggestion, (I am no longer based in Australia), is that OpenStreetMap 
schema and so on is becoming stable enough to think about having 
separate layers outside the main database.  This might well suit the 
suburbs boundary case. Perhaps one as an as is "official" layer and one 
as a community-edited version.



Mike


On 19/09/2012 11:17, Andrew Harvey wrote:

Hi Ken,

On 19/09/12 11:57, Ken Self wrote:
   

In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common
   

boundaries
   

with one another and the multipolygons close off properly. Those are pretty
much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few manual errors creep
in but they are easily fixed.

As I understand it from the ABS website
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad00818509?o
pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries
 

... that document is for the 2006 census boundaries.

For the 2011 ASGS, the Non-ABS structures data is at
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July%202011?OpenDocument

With the documentation at
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/subscriber.nsf/log?openagent&1270055003_oct%202011.pdf&1270.0.55.003&Publication&469CDA45CE2B94CCCA257937000D966F&&July%202011&31.10.2011&Previous

it states that the LGA boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, "are
an ABS approximation of officially gazetted LGAs as defined by each
State and Territory (S/T) Local Government Department."

Which is good enough for most purposes, and a good starting point for
later corrections.

I suppose that raises an interesting point, that in true OSM spirit if
on the ground data indicates an area is LGA X (eg. street sign
branding), but the "official" gazetted boundaries say otherwise, OSM
should primarily contain what's on the ground, rather than the
"official" one.

Again quoting from that document, the suburb boundaries which form part
of the ASGS 2011, "are an ABS approximation of localities gazetted by
the Geographical Place Name authority in each State and Territory (S/T).
Since 1996 these boundaries have been formalised for most areas of
Australia through a program coordinated by the Committee for
Geographical Names in Australasia (CGNA) under the umbrella of the
Intergovernmental Committee On Surveying and Mapping (ISCM). SSCs are
built from Statistical Area Level 1 (SA1) that, singly or in
combination, form an approximation of Gazetted Localities."

   

The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections that is
ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on
http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but not sure
if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS boundaries.
 

No you cannot gather information from those maps and transfer it into OSM.

Those maps are Copyright All rights reserved. And the golden OSM rule is
don't copy from other maps unless they are released under a compatible
license.
   


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Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets

[Brett Russell]

Oops terminological mistake.  Looks like they are "small" roundabouts.  Thanks, 
will do.  

Cheers
Brett Russell
PO Box 94
Launceston Tas. 7250
Australia
0419 374 971

On 19/09/2012, at 7:30 PM, "Michael James"  wrote:

> On 09/19/2012 04:35 PM, Ross Scanlon wrote:
>> They are not mini-roundabouts if you can not drive over them.
>> 
>> Look here:
>> 
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout
>> 
>> Also read the Australian Tagging Guidelines here:
>> 
>> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines
>> 
>> mini_roundabout is not determined by size.
>> 
>> Australia does not have mini roundabouts, road rules require you to
>> drive around the center island unless it is impractical to do so, ie
>> truck, bus.
> 
> According to the tagging guidelines for mini roundabout this is one :-
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/8WAZ6
> 
> Are you saying it isn't?
> 
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Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries

[Andrew Harvey]

On 19/09/12 19:50, Michael Collinson wrote:
> FYI, Franc was kind enough to let me have a copy of his original Perl
> import script.  Email me if you want a copy.  However, and I think Franc
> would agree, I understand it has really been superceded by the
> capabilities of ogr2osm.  Emilie Laffray said to me in email, "If it is
> done properly (and data is good), ogr2osm would remove duplicate nodes,
> merges ways etc... A little inspection of data should provide us this."

Created with ogr2osm,

http://tianjara.net/data/osm/imports/SSC_2011_AUST.osm.xz

I'm not actually sure which ogr2osm settings I used though, and I don't
know how well it made use of the multipolygon and share boundaries though.



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[talk-au] Rest areas

[John Henderson]

Hi all,

I want to draw attention to the correct tag for rest areas, namely
highway:rest_area

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area

Most I've seen have been tagged as amenity:parking and/or
tourism:camp_site.  The camp_site tag is wildly misleading, as "setting
up camp" is prohibited in rest areas.

I'm fixing these as I come across them.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Rest areas

[Andrew Harvey]

On 20/09/12 06:03, John Henderson wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I want to draw attention to the correct tag for rest areas, namely
> highway:rest_area
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
> 
> Most I've seen have been tagged as amenity:parking and/or
> tourism:camp_site.  The camp_site tag is wildly misleading, as "setting
> up camp" is prohibited in rest areas.
> 
> I'm fixing these as I come across them.

Thanks John I didn't know about this.

I've just fixed two of these in fosm. *I hope people on this don't see
the inclusion of this line trolling. But since we inherit all mapping
techniques, tags, and other "how to map" guides in fosm from osm, it
makes sense to consolidate that discussion on the OSM lists, and wiki etc.



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Re: [talk-au] Rest areas

[John Henderson]

On 20/09/12 08:17, John Smith wrote:


The rest area to the south of Gympie allows camping for up to 48
hours or something like that, it's not the only one, but the one I
know off the top of my head.


I'm aware of a few of those free caravan/camping facilities, sometimes
provided by local council to boost trade in a struggling town.  I think
we'd all agree those should be tagged as "tourism=camp_site", along with 
"maxstay=2 days" for example.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxstay

John


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Re: [talk-au] Rest areas

[Ian Sergeant]

On 20 September 2012 07:52, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> Thanks John I didn't know about this.
>
> I've just fixed two of these in fosm. *I hope people on this don't see
> the inclusion of this line trolling. But since we inherit all mapping
> techniques, tags, and other "how to map" guides in fosm from osm, it
> makes sense to consolidate that discussion on the OSM lists, and wiki etc.

A discussion of the tag is clearly on topic, regardless of where the
tag is used.

An email saying "I just fixed two in fosm" and nothing else is clearly
off-topic here.  It belongs on the fosm list.

Ian.

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Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries

[Ken Self]

Unfortunately I've found that the ABS data that the data is not as good as
it ought to be. Many nodes that should be shared are not coincident and in
many cases a vertex node for one boundary has no corresponding node on the
"straight through" boundary. And in some cases the vertex node is not quite
on the adjacent way or the ways cross over.

I'm finding that as often as not I have to "join node to way" rather than
"merge nodes" to resolve the boundary intersection

Ken

> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Collinson [mailto:m...@ayeltd.biz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 September 2012 7:50 PM
> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
> 
> 
> FYI, Franc was kind enough to let me have a copy of his original Perl
> import script.  Email me if you want a copy.  However, and I 
> think Franc 
> would agree, I understand it has really been superceded by the 
> capabilities of ogr2osm.  Emilie Laffray said to me in email, 
> "If it is 
> done properly (and data is good), ogr2osm would remove 
> duplicate nodes, 
> merges ways etc... A little inspection of data should provide 
> us this."
> 
> On the discussion of whether it is actually a good idea, my mild
> suggestion, (I am no longer based in Australia), is that 
> OpenStreetMap 
> schema and so on is becoming stable enough to think about having 
> separate layers outside the main database.  This might well suit the 
> suburbs boundary case. Perhaps one as an as is "official" 
> layer and one 
> as a community-edited version.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> On 19/09/2012 11:17, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > On 19/09/12 11:57, Ken Self wrote:
> >
> >>> In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common
> >>>
> > boundaries
> >
> >> with one another and the multipolygons close off properly.
> Those are
> >> pretty much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few
> >> manual errors creep in but they are easily fixed.
> >>
> >> As I understand it from the ABS website
> >> 
> http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad008
> >> 18509?o
> >> pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries
> >>  
> > ... that document is for the 2006 census boundaries.
> >
> > For the 2011 ASGS, the Non-ABS structures data is at
> > 
> http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July%
> > 202011?OpenDocument
> >
> > With the documentation at
> > 
> http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/subscriber.nsf/log?openagent&1270055003
> > 
> _oct%202011.pdf&1270.0.55.003&Publication&469CDA45CE2B94CCCA257937000D
> > 966F&&July%202011&31.10.2011&Previous
> >
> > it states that the LGA boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011,
> > "are an ABS approximation of officially gazetted LGAs as defined by 
> > each State and Territory (S/T) Local Government Department."
> >
> > Which is good enough for most purposes, and a good starting
> point for
> > later corrections.
> >
> > I suppose that raises an interesting point, that in true
> OSM spirit if
> > on the ground data indicates an area is LGA X (eg. street sign
> > branding), but the "official" gazetted boundaries say 
> otherwise, OSM
> > should primarily contain what's on the ground, rather than the
> > "official" one.
> >
> > Again quoting from that document, the suburb boundaries which form
> > part of the ASGS 2011, "are an ABS approximation of localities 
> > gazetted by the Geographical Place Name authority in each State and 
> > Territory (S/T). Since 1996 these boundaries have been 
> formalised for
> > most areas of Australia through a program coordinated by
> the Committee
> > for Geographical Names in Australasia (CGNA) under the
> umbrella of the
> > Intergovernmental Committee On Surveying and Mapping
> (ISCM). SSCs are
> > built from Statistical Area Level 1 (SA1) that, singly or in
> > combination, form an approximation of Gazetted Localities."
> >
> >
> >> The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections
> >> that is ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on 
> >> 
> http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but
> >> not sure if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS
> >> boundaries.
> >>  
> > No you cannot gather information from those maps and
> transfer it into
> > OSM.
> >
> > Those maps are Copyright All rights reserved. And the
> golden OSM rule
> > is don't copy from other maps unless they are released under a
> > compatible license.
> >
> 
> 
> 


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[talk-au] Tasmanian Survey Marks

[Brett Russell]

Hi 
 
When searching for survey marks I came across this link that lists the known 
survey marks, http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/Attachments/NBON-75X7RM?open 
in a CSV format for Tasmanian.  Not suggesting that this is imported into OSM 
as not aware of the copyright issues but at long last I have come across 
something that will enable me to check my Garmin 62s' accuracy and give the 
ability to align Bing when I find them on the ground providing that they can be 
seen from Bing.  Be great if they are in nice circles of paving but something 
tells me I will not be that lucky but a bit of averaging should get a couple of 
metres of accuracy.   This will means I can fix up some roads (split lanes) 
alignment so I am not told to turn-around and go back as happened to me in 
Launceston.   Also avoid GPS wars where mine is better than yours as I have 
noticed when playing with GPS that one brand is consistently 10 or so metres 
out.  Also spotted something similar when checking my traces to other traces 
loaded into OSM.  
 
Been reading up on GPS accuracy and playing with averaging waypoints on the 
Garmin 62S and have realised that WAAS does not work outside the USA and for 
some units better to have it switched off.  If I wrong in my understanding 
please let me know.  I can be rather a precision freak but be nice to get thing 
right.  Still interested in the most accurate GPS outside professional units 
but given the WAAS issue tend to think USA based comparisons are flawed.  Did 
find an interesting article from the Berkeley University GIS section where high 
end standard consumer GPS actually perform better than some of the professional 
units where base station correction is not available or reception is 
compromised by locational issues such as tree cover.
 
Now it would be great to permanently align Bing in Polatch 2 but this does not 
appear possible and I need to read up in JOSM to find the means to do this.  
Generally finding Bing around 10 metres or better correct in native format 
(assuming my GSP is that good) but some tiles the overlap can be out by more 
than that which is especially noticeable on things like lakes that cover more 
than one photographic tile
 
Cheers Brett
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Re: [talk-au] Tasmanian Survey Marks

[Ross Scanlon]

something that will enable me to check my Garmin 62s' accuracy and give
the ability to align Bing when I find them on the ground providing that
they can be seen from Bing. Be great if they are in nice circles of


I doubt if you'll see them on bing as most survey points are way too small.

You'd probably be better of using the agri control points

http://agri.openstreetmap.org/download/AGRI_GCP/AGRI_GCP.gdb.csv

As these are generally road intersections etc and include photos so can 
be easier to confirm with bing.


Cheers
Ross

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Re: [talk-au] Aligning steets

[Ross Scanlon]

On 19/09/12 19:28, Michael James wrote:

On 09/19/2012 04:35 PM, Ross Scanlon wrote:

They are not mini-roundabouts if you can not drive over them.

Look here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout

Also read the Australian Tagging Guidelines here:

wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines

mini_roundabout is not determined by size.

Australia does not have mini roundabouts, road rules require you to
drive around the center island unless it is impractical to do so, ie
truck, bus.


According to the tagging guidelines for mini roundabout this is one :-

http://goo.gl/maps/8WAZ6

Are you saying it isn't?

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Yes it is a small roundabout as you can not legally drive over it unless 
it is impractical to do so.


The vehicle in the street view is clearly about to drive around the 
center island.  Whereas if it was a truck/bus/caravan it would be able 
to drive over it if necessary.


Read through the mailing list archives all this discussion was thrashed 
out years ago and nothing has changed.


Cheers
Ross


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