Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Ewen Hill]

Just an update on Motorways. Australia has very few and most of these are
normally mapped correctly already. The Bass Highway in Victoria is not a
motorway as a number of roads enter at 90 degrees as well as driveways.
There is definitely no motorway through the townships of Cranbourne and
Tooradin as well as other towns. This is a Trunk road as it a key route to
west Gippsland towns.

The only time you would need to change to a motorway is for upgrades to
highways and local knowledge will do that for you.

Thanks for all your edits

Ewen

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 22:07, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> Forwarding this email to the list, as it was held in moderation due to the
> embedded images.
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Andrew Harvey 
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:55
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS
> To: Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) 
> Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
>
>
> Thanks for the examples.
>
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:27, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) <
> v-maa...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> *Motorway or Trunk: **-38.3999033,145.5370408*
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Follow this Mapillary.
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-38.3994248999=145.5372489=19.64334424490615=photo=QjkvLvLb1fNa_SNzVpbcgw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is [M420], motorway which enters the town. Should the part
>> through the town be mapped as trunk or to keep it as motorway, because when
>> it leaves town it is for sure motorway but in town it does not fulfill the
>> description of motorway, also it has traffic signals.
>>
>
> According to the OSM wiki highway=motorway is for a controlled access
> highway, which wikipedia says:
>
> "A controlled-access highway provides an unhindered flow of traffic, with
> no traffic signals ,
> intersections  or property
> access . They are free of any at-grade
> crossings  with
> other roads, railways, or pedestrian paths, which are instead carried by
> overpasses  and underpasses
> . Entrances and exits to the
> highway are provided at interchanges
>  by slip roads (ramps),
> which allow for speed changes between the highway and arterials
>  and collector roads
> . On the controlled-access
> highway, opposing directions of travel are generally separated by a median
> strip  or central reservation
> containing a traffic barrier
>  or grass. Elimination of
> conflicts with other directions of traffic dramatically improves safety[1]
>  and
> capacity."
>
> Based on this, the Bass Highway is trunk not a motorway (it has traffic
> lights, roundabouts, it doesn't provide onramp/offramps), so I think you
> need to revert your recent tag change to this road, not just for the
> sections through towns, but for the whole road.
>
>
>>
>> *Trunk or Primary: **-34.8378323, 138.5029666*
>> 
>>
>>
>> We will follow the [A16] route from junction Victoria Road – Nelson
>> Street. These two roads are on the same [A16] route. Victoria Road is
>> mapped as Trunk, but Nelson Street is set as Primary Road.
>> These both roads look almost the same – two separate ways with two or three
>> lanes, no barrier in between:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Nelson Street*
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=kJLW93dqu0t4cM34Al4wtA=-34.83935459862475=138.4998110442043=17
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Victoria Road*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=fqlFms86fTiE-ODwBcrHhQ=-34.83792630649351=138.50419954805196=1.874671732287
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The only difference is road type (Road vs Street). But, route [A16] then
>> continues in Semaphore Road, which also looks exactly the same as
>> previous two roads, but it is mapped as Primary Road. This street to me
>> also looks as trunk. Part of Semaphore Road which is not on [A16] route is
>> mapped as *secondary*, but it looks like a *primary* road. In this
>> case, should Semaphore Road be mapped as trunk – primary, instead of
>> primary – secondary?
>>
>
> It's not just the physical condition of the road, but also how important
> that road is from the road network perspective, so generally the more
> traffic the road gets and the more "important" it is in terms of linking
> major centres together, then the higher the classification. So in that way,
> two roads which look the same can 

Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

Forwarding this email to the list, as it was held in moderation due to the
embedded images.

-- Forwarded message -
From: Andrew Harvey 
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:55
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS
To: Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) 
Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org 


Thanks for the examples.

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 19:27, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) <
v-maa...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> *Motorway or Trunk: **-38.3999033,145.5370408*
> 
>
>
>
>
> Follow this Mapillary.
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-38.3994248999=145.5372489=19.64334424490615=photo=QjkvLvLb1fNa_SNzVpbcgw
>
>
>
>
> This is [M420], motorway which enters the town. Should the part
> through the town be mapped as trunk or to keep it as motorway, because when
> it leaves town it is for sure motorway but in town it does not fulfill the
> description of motorway, also it has traffic signals.
>

According to the OSM wiki highway=motorway is for a controlled access
highway, which wikipedia says:

"A controlled-access highway provides an unhindered flow of traffic, with
no traffic signals ,
intersections  or property
access . They are free of any at-grade
crossings  with other
roads, railways, or pedestrian paths, which are instead carried by
overpasses  and underpasses
. Entrances and exits to the
highway are provided at interchanges
 by slip roads (ramps),
which allow for speed changes between the highway and arterials
 and collector roads
. On the controlled-access
highway, opposing directions of travel are generally separated by a median
strip  or central reservation
containing a traffic barrier  or
grass. Elimination of conflicts with other directions of traffic
dramatically improves safety[1]
 and
capacity."

Based on this, the Bass Highway is trunk not a motorway (it has traffic
lights, roundabouts, it doesn't provide onramp/offramps), so I think you
need to revert your recent tag change to this road, not just for the
sections through towns, but for the whole road.


>
> *Trunk or Primary: **-34.8378323, 138.5029666*
> 
>
>
> We will follow the [A16] route from junction Victoria Road – Nelson
> Street. These two roads are on the same [A16] route. Victoria Road is
> mapped as Trunk, but Nelson Street is set as Primary Road.
> These both roads look almost the same – two separate ways with two or three
> lanes, no barrier in between:
>
>
>
> *Nelson Street*
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=kJLW93dqu0t4cM34Al4wtA=-34.83935459862475=138.4998110442043=17
>
>
>
>
> *Victoria Road*
>
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=fqlFms86fTiE-ODwBcrHhQ=-34.83792630649351=138.50419954805196=1.874671732287
>
>
>
>
> The only difference is road type (Road vs Street). But, route [A16] then
> continues in Semaphore Road, which also looks exactly the same as
> previous two roads, but it is mapped as Primary Road. This street to me
> also looks as trunk. Part of Semaphore Road which is not on [A16] route is
> mapped as *secondary*, but it looks like a *primary* road. In this
> case, should Semaphore Road be mapped as trunk – primary, instead of
> primary – secondary?
>

It's not just the physical condition of the road, but also how important
that road is from the road network perspective, so generally the more
traffic the road gets and the more "important" it is in terms of linking
major centres together, then the higher the classification. So in that way,
two roads which look the same can have different classification based on
their importance in the road network.


>
>
> Next case, on [A16] route, *Causeway Road* is definitely a primary road.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://openstreetcam.org/details/1341011/254/track-info
>
>
>
> Further on, [A16] continues to *Bower Road*, which looks like a trunk
> road, but it’s mapped as a primary.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo=_jlpimXN_-a17Mt8E92wRg=-34.852086664809406=138.49658016539593=17
>
>
>
>
> These all roads are on the same [A16] route.
>
>
>
> If we compare what is written here
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway with M, A, B, C routes
> then we find that A route, in most cases, primarily consists of trunks.
> Putting Causeway Road on a side, all other 

Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

me? Actually I myself have done very little mapping in VIC, so don't have
the local knowledge there.

It looks like some of these messages have got caught in the mailing list
moderator queue. I'll try to forward them on without the embedded images.

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 21:21, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> I suggest you point Andrew to some areas of concern before any reversions.
> He is a prolific mapper in Victoria (and many other areas).
>
>
> Cheers - Phil,
> On the road with his iPad
>
> On 23 Jul 2019, at 9:12 pm, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au <
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply,
>
>
>
> I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes,
> that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that
> gov routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.
>
>
>
> I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before
> reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for
> these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give
> an opinion?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aleksandar
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Disclaimer: I never was in Australia
22 Jul 2019, 16:50 by talk-au@openstreetmap.org:
>
>
>  1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route into 
> trunk through the city because it does not have a physical barrier in between 
> (not restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway because of consistency?
>
>
>
Yes, highway=motorway should not appear in roads without even dual
carriageway.
>
> 2. If we were to change the road classification several times during one 
> route way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for example 
> motorway going through minor city in which it has a quality of trunk)? 
>
>
I would change classification, but
it seems dubious to me that it would be a
motorway.

Specific example would be helpful here.
>
> 3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?
>
>
No. Though motorway link
connecting to roads may have traffic
signals.___
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Phil Wyatt]

I suggest you point Andrew to some areas of concern before any reversions. He 
is a prolific mapper in Victoria (and many other areas).


Cheers - Phil, 
On the road with his iPad 

> On 23 Jul 2019, at 9:12 pm, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply,
>  
> I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes, 
> that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that gov 
> routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.
>  
> I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before 
> reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for 
> these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give an 
> opinion?
>  
> Thanks,
> Aleksandar
>  
>  
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au]

Thanks for the reply,

I haven't followed Wiki blindly because it can be contradictory sometimes, 
that's the reason why I'm asking these questions here. Also, I think that gov 
routes are there to indicate importance of the road and flow of traffic.

I would personally wait for couple of more opinions regarding this before 
reverting suggested road classification. If there are any local mapper for 
these areas It would be great if they could turn into conversation to give an 
opinion?

Thanks,
Aleksandar


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Re: [talk-au] Road classification in AUS

[Andrew Harvey]

Do you have any examples of some of the roads in question? Could you link
to those please?

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 00:51, Aleksandar Matejevic (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> My name is Aleksandar Matejevic, I work for Microsoft OSM Editorial team.
> In order to make the best decision in classifying roads across Australia, I
> need some help.
>
> In government data and on signposts you can find on mapillary and/or open
> street cam, you can track route numbers. I found out that routes mostly
> consist of:
>
> M route – motorways
>
> A route – trunks
>
> B route – primary roads
>
> C route - secondary roads
>
> As long you map in non-urban area this is 99.99% true, but when you map
> into city area it starts to get confusing.
>
> On this wiki page *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia
> * there is no real
> explanation how to classify AUS roads in OSM
>
> If you strictly follow this page: 
> *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
> * than you should change
> road classification several times on the same route way.
>
> Therefore I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Do you change the classification of highway on the motorway route into
> trunk through the city because it does not have a physical barrier in
> between (not restricted access) or do you keep it as motorway because of
> consistency?
>
> 2. If we were to change the road classification several times during one
> route way, should we ignore segments that are less than 3km (for example
> motorway going through minor city in which it has a quality of trunk)?
>
> 3. Can motorway have some traffic signals when passing through city?
>
> 4. How to classify State routes (for example in Melbourne)?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Aleksandar
>
>
>
>
>
>
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