Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 18:25, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I finally managed to get in touch with one of the organisers, and raised
> the licensing/waiver issue. They've said they asked Planet Labs for the
> waiver, I've also independently reached out to the Planet Labs disasters
> contact with background on why OSM asks for the waiver and the waiver
> asking them if they can complete it if they would like OSM to be able to
> use their disaster imagery. Given the mapathon is on Sunday it's a
> nervous wait to see if they'll respond in time.
>

Thanks to many people behind the scenes we obtained the necessary CC waiver
from Planet Labs. I've updated
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue with the
details. I'll update the Contributors page on Sunday when I see some edits
come through.
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Re: [talk-au] FW: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 at 08:32, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> There was a proposal back in 2016 (well after the first use of the damage
> tag) and it seems to have stalled, maybe because tagging damage has been
> found to be less effective than hoped
>
>
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/HOT_Damage_Tagging_Proposal
>
>
>
>
> https://americanredcross.github.io/OSM-Assessment/docs/OSM%20Damage%20Assessment%20Interim%20Report.pdf
>
>
>
> maybe the discussion needs to be moved to the tagging list, if its deemed
> a worthy addition?
>

Yes, I would think so

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 23:37, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
> Yes it will go out of date quickly but so does landuse=construction. If
> anything by flagging it as damaged, ruined, razed it attributes this
> feature as needed to be checked again soon.
>

Yep, as I said on the other thread, they all need a fixme= added, as well
as "damaged"

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 19:42, Ewen Hill  wrote:

>
> I would like to see something a bit smarter than this. Something that can
> assist people on the ground now would be highly beneficial. A "Hell yes, we
> are open" web-site that *small *businesses can advertise would be great.
> A whole lot of other things could be done well before adding a temporary
> updates. These towns are going to really struggle in winter and people
> drift off.
>

Completely OT to mapping, but saw this article a few weeks ago
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-13/community-campaigns-helping-bushfire-towns-bounce-back/11859990

& this is the site they mentioned
https://www.roadtripforgood.org.au/locale/roadtrip-for-good

There are already other similar sites appearing as well, so good on 'em! :-)

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] FW: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

There was a proposal back in 2016 (well after the first use of the damage tag) 
and it seems to have stalled, maybe because tagging damage has been found to be 
less effective than hoped

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/HOT_Damage_Tagging_Proposal

 

https://americanredcross.github.io/OSM-Assessment/docs/OSM%20Damage%20Assessment%20Interim%20Report.pdf

 

maybe the discussion needs to be moved to the tagging list, if its deemed a 
worthy addition?

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  
Sent: Friday, 7 February 2020 9:22 AM
To: Phil Wyatt 
Cc: OSM-Au 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] FW: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

 

 

 

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 20:27, Phil Wyatt mailto:p...@wyatt-family.com> > wrote:


From: Russell Deffner mailto:russell.deff...@hotosm.org> > 
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 9:04 PM
To: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com  >
Cc: h...@openstreetmap.org  
Subject: Re: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

Just a quick note; HOT does not formally do damage tagging, mainly because no 
tagging schema exists. In the past, members of HOT tried various tagging but 
results for remote damage assessment were poor.

I personally would be glad to see a community driven tagging schema developed 
but if not we (HOT) will need to document what we come up with for usage in 
disaster response and recovery.

One glaring issue has been that typically the tags persist much longer than the 
damage.

=Russ

> On Feb 6, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>  > wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> It looks like HOT is using the tag 'damage' for something. It is not 
> documented as to what it means. Further is this information kept current or 
> just added and forgotten? In at least one case the tag goes back to 2011.

 

So it looks like that damage= key we were discussing needs to be documented, & 
I suppose go through the full RFC & so on basis for arguments :-(

 

However, I'd also suggest that whenever (without fail!), something is tagged as 
damaged=, it also has to have a fixme= added, so that it's (hopefully!) one day 
corrected.

 

The big problem there, of course, is when things are marked as damaged by 
remote HOT mappers, who is actually on site in that area to correct the map as 
buildings are either repaired or demolished, & when is aerial imagery of these 
areas likely to be updated?  

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

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Re: [talk-au] FW: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 20:27, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

>
> From: Russell Deffner 
> Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 9:04 PM
> To: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> Cc: h...@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,
>
> Just a quick note; HOT does not formally do damage tagging, mainly because
> no tagging schema exists. In the past, members of HOT tried various tagging
> but results for remote damage assessment were poor.
>
> I personally would be glad to see a community driven tagging schema
> developed but if not we (HOT) will need to document what we come up with
> for usage in disaster response and recovery.
>
> One glaring issue has been that typically the tags persist much longer
> than the damage.
>
> =Russ
>
> > On Feb 6, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > It looks like HOT is using the tag 'damage' for something. It is not
> documented as to what it means. Further is this information kept current or
> just added and forgotten? In at least one case the tag goes back to 2011.
>

So it looks like that damage= key we were discussing needs to be
documented, & I suppose go through the full RFC & so on basis for arguments
:-(

However, I'd also suggest that whenever (without fail!), something is
tagged as damaged=, it also has to have a fixme= added, so that it's
(hopefully!) one day corrected.

The big problem there, of course, is when things are marked as damaged by
remote HOT mappers, who is actually on site in that area to correct the map
as buildings are either repaired or demolished, & when is aerial imagery of
these areas likely to be updated?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 20:52, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 6/2/20 8:39 pm, Ewen Hill wrote:
> >The states have sent out a rapid impact assessment teams to all areas
> > now and have followed up with detailed analysis in most. We know what
> > has been damaged, destroyed and what was inhabited, what wasn't and what
> > other assets were damaged. We also know the structure type, bedroom
> > count etc. Any updates on Sunday are not going to help anyone in social
> > services, council, planning, asbestos removal. I honestly don't know
> > what benefit this will be and as Warin correctly stated, updated.
>
> I agree. I was thinking about the utility of trying to map this stuff
> from aerial imagery when the groups that are responding will all ready
> have much better datasets. Australia is not Haiti or Nepal.
>

I checked out the provided imagery from Planet Labs, from what I could tell
the resolution is too low to make out buildings, for large buildings you
might see a 4 white pixels, but not enough to confidently make out that
it's a building let alone if it's destroyed or not.


> This is one of the biggest problems with the damaged=* tag. It needs to
> be updated regularly because we know that it's a temporary state, and
> who is going to do that?
>

Yes it will go out of date quickly but so does landuse=construction. If
anything by flagging it as damaged, ruined, razed it attributes this
feature as needed to be checked again soon. StreetComplete already does
this for landuse=construction, every month or so it will prompt you "Is
this feature still in construction?".
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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 20:39, Ewen Hill  wrote:

> I will be attending Melbourne however I have deep reservations about this
> and that doesn't include the Waiver which is key to the entire project.
>
>   The states have sent out a rapid impact assessment teams to all areas
> now and have followed up with detailed analysis in most. We know what has
> been damaged, destroyed and what was inhabited, what wasn't and what other
> assets were damaged. We also know the structure type, bedroom count etc.
> Any updates on Sunday are not going to help anyone in social services,
> council, planning, asbestos removal. I honestly don't know what benefit
> this will be and as Warin correctly stated, updated.
>

Agreed.


>
> The removal of buildings and rubble including asbestos will take
> significant time. What is there now, may not be there in 6-12 months and
> the map will be out of date.
>

While that's true, I don't see that a reason not to try. In my eyes it's no
different to someone who maps out all the shops in a retail area, which
also will go out of date quickly.


>
> The other thing to remember is to respect those who have lost everything
> don't need to see damaged/destroyed  on their property as they try and
> rebuild it.
>
> I do see benefit in mapping commercial premises and public assets that
> have been affected.
>
> I would like to see something a bit smarter than this. Something that can
> assist people on the ground now would be highly beneficial. A "Hell yes, we
> are open" web-site that *small *businesses can advertise would be great.
> A whole lot of other things could be done well before adding a temporary
> updates. These towns are going to really struggle in winter and people
> drift off.
>

Maybe an effort to get these rural businesses mapped in OSM, with all the
frills that go with that, website, contact phone/email, opening hours.
Being on the map would help bring customers in the door.
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[talk-au] FW: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

This just popped into the HOT mailing list - very topical at the moment and may 
be worth taking to the SSSI event organisers

Cheers - Phil

-Original Message-
From: Russell Deffner  
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 9:04 PM
To: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
Cc: h...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] damage as a tag - not docu,

Just a quick note; HOT does not formally do damage tagging, mainly because no 
tagging schema exists. In the past, members of HOT tried various tagging but 
results for remote damage assessment were poor.

I personally would be glad to see a community driven tagging schema developed 
but if not we (HOT) will need to document what we come up with for usage in 
disaster response and recovery.

One glaring issue has been that typically the tags persist much longer than the 
damage.

=Russ

> On Feb 6, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> It looks like HOT is using the tag 'damage' for something. It is not 
> documented as to what it means. Further is this information kept current or 
> just added and forgotten? In at least one case the tag goes back to 2011.
> 
> 
> When will HOT start to document what tags they are using, and what they are 
> used for on the OSM wiki? This is not good behavior for HOT in OSM.
> 
> 
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> h...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Andrew Davidson]

On 6/2/20 8:39 pm, Ewen Hill wrote:
   The states have sent out a rapid impact assessment teams to all areas 
now and have followed up with detailed analysis in most. We know what 
has been damaged, destroyed and what was inhabited, what wasn't and what 
other assets were damaged. We also know the structure type, bedroom 
count etc. Any updates on Sunday are not going to help anyone in social 
services, council, planning, asbestos removal. I honestly don't know 
what benefit this will be and as Warin correctly stated, updated.


I agree. I was thinking about the utility of trying to map this stuff 
from aerial imagery when the groups that are responding will all ready 
have much better datasets. Australia is not Haiti or Nepal.


I can also understand that SSSI wants to do something to help, that's a 
very natural human emotion. I just don't think this is it.


The removal of buildings and rubble including asbestos will take 
significant time. What is there now, may not be there in 6-12 months and 
the map will be out of date.


This is one of the biggest problems with the damaged=* tag. It needs to 
be updated regularly because we know that it's a temporary state, and 
who is going to do that?


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Re: [talk-au] SSSI National Bushfire Recovery Map-a-thon - Sunday 9th Feb

[Ewen Hill]

I will be attending Melbourne however I have deep reservations about this
and that doesn't include the Waiver which is key to the entire project.

  The states have sent out a rapid impact assessment teams to all areas now
and have followed up with detailed analysis in most. We know what has been
damaged, destroyed and what was inhabited, what wasn't and what other
assets were damaged. We also know the structure type, bedroom count etc.
Any updates on Sunday are not going to help anyone in social services,
council, planning, asbestos removal. I honestly don't know what benefit
this will be and as Warin correctly stated, updated.

The removal of buildings and rubble including asbestos will take
significant time. What is there now, may not be there in 6-12 months and
the map will be out of date.

The other thing to remember is to respect those who have lost everything
don't need to see damaged/destroyed  on their property as they try and
rebuild it.

I do see benefit in mapping commercial premises and public assets that have
been affected.

I would like to see something a bit smarter than this. Something that can
assist people on the ground now would be highly beneficial. A "Hell yes, we
are open" web-site that *small *businesses can advertise would be great. A
whole lot of other things could be done well before adding a temporary
updates. These towns are going to really struggle in winter and people
drift off.

Ewen

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 18:28, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I finally managed to get in touch with one of the organisers, and raised
> the licensing/waiver issue. They've said they asked Planet Labs for the
> waiver, I've also independently reached out to the Planet Labs disasters
> contact with background on why OSM asks for the waiver and the waiver
> asking them if they can complete it if they would like OSM to be able to
> use their disaster imagery. Given the mapathon is on Sunday it's a
> nervous wait to see if they'll respond in time.
>
> I've presented the organiser with an alternative of using ARA's imagery
> for Adelaide Hills and Kangaroo Island (though I just went through and
> mapped out most of Kangaroo Island last night, and KI won't be enough to
> sustain a nation wide mapathon). I also mentioned the Maxar imagery, but
> they don't have much post-event imagery published yet, so can't easily be
> used to identify damaged buildings.
>
> The organiser was not fully across exactly how the HOT Tasking Manager
> worked, they thought edits won't go into OSM until after being validated,
> so they thought without the waiver they could just not upload to OSM, but I
> informed them that's not how the HOT Tasking Manager works, all edits are
> saved into OSM even before the Tasking Manager validation step.
>
> They said if they can't get the waiver they "plan to extract the changeset
> out of OSM post mapathons (this Sunday) at which stage we would expect the
> data not to be committed to OSM". That doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Since I'm now part of the Data Working Group, I briefly discussed it with
> them and if we don't have the waiver or explicit permission to trace their
> imagery in OSM then we will have no choice but to revert edits / or temp
> block accounts. The LWG policy is clear that for the avoidance of doubt we
> need additional waiver / explicit permission when tracing CC BY, CC BY-SA
> or CC BY-NC imagery.
>
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 18:00, Sebastian S.  wrote:
>
>> Hi Andrew, are they (the organisers) aware of the licensing
>> issues/requirements?
>>
>> Are they following here? Please engage with the discussion :-)
>>
>> On 6 February 2020 12:37:16 pm AEDT, Andrew Harvey <
>> andrew.harv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was corrected by someone off list, looks like they are planning on
>>> mapping within OSM https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/7893. Now I have to
>>> scrabble to validate Planet Labs has provided the necessary permission for
>>> their imagery to be traced into OSM.
>>>
>>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 12:12, Andrew Harvey 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I sent an email to the contact email to ask for more information, but
 by the looks of it they aren't uploading anything to OpenStreetMap, they
 are creating their own datasets (which may or may not be released as open
 data, they haven't stated yet). It's unclear how they are planning on
 consuming OpenStreetMap though. I'm still keen to see what they've
 identified as important or useful to map.

 What they've stated is they'll be using Planet Labs imagery
 https://www.planet.com/disaster/fires-in-australia-2019-11-06/.

 1) As far as I'm aware we don't have an imagery tracing waiver from
 Planet Labs, it's worth reaching out to Planet Labs to ask for this waiver
 for use in OpenStreetMap.

 2) Since access to the imagery is restricted "We provide limited access
 to Explorer for up to 30 days to qualified disaster volunteer
 organizations, humanitarian organizations,