Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi legal-questions,

I'm forwarding this interesting question about the OSMF Terms of Use
preventing anyone from obtaining OSM data for emergency services use. This
is in direct conflict with the ODBL terms which contain no such
restriction, and also include a limitation of liability clause. Surely
other emergency services organisations are using OSM data without issue.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 12:24, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> Hi Rob,
>
> Interesting point you raise!
>
> While on the surface you'd think terms (from the OSMF Terms of Use
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses)
> only ask you not to use OSMF services like the website, API for those
> purposes and not the data, it includes "data distribution".
>
> I suggest you raise this on the legal talk mailing list
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk and/or directly with
> the OSMF legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact).
>
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 11:41, rob potter  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
>> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
>> 
>>  and
>> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>>
>> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
>> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
>> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
>> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
>> other agency consumption.*
>> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
>> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
>> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
>> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
>> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
>> doing so); or"*
>>
>> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will
>> enhance the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want
>> to cause problems later.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[stevea]

My local chapter of OSM is in the USA (OSM-US), but yes, I think you (all) are 
on the right approach here:  the "Australia / Oceania Chapter" (I think it is, 
or is called) as a semi-formal sub-community within OSM, or even an "official" 
chapter, is the "first stop" along the way of this sort of "thread the legal 
needle" here, then it might go to the Foundation (LWG, Legal Working Group, I 
believe) as a "they'll figure it out" last stop, perhaps.

So, now at the regional level, maybe at the "global, legal" level (the 
Foundation's LWG) if not fully "resolved" at the regional / Oceania level.

Sorry to be a bit hazy, but it should come into better focus soon; somewhere 
around there, it WILL get resolved.
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi Rob,

Interesting point you raise!

While on the surface you'd think terms (from the OSMF Terms of Use
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses)
only ask you not to use OSMF services like the website, API for those
purposes and not the data, it includes "data distribution".

I suggest you raise this on the legal talk mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk and/or directly with
the OSMF legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact).

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 11:41, rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[forster]

Hi Rob

A warm welcome to you and the Department of Transport to OSM (just  
speaking for myself, one of over 8 million contributors.)


Its an exciting time for me to be an OSM contributor as OSM is  
becoming the preferred map for so many.


Sorry if I have missed something but this post confused me and may  
perplex many on this list.


You appear to be asking a legal question, is it allowed to use OSM  
data to "Operate dangerous businesses such as emergency services or  
air traffic control"

This text appears to be a quote from the https://wiki.osmfoundation.org.

You did the right thing approaching the community first but there may  
not be too many lawyers on this list. Maybe the osmfoundation will  
have to reply


Good luck, I hope that we can work together.

Tony
(One of 8 million volunteers)


Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki

and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
started using the information but we are implementing a system of
validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
other agency consumption.*
*Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*

Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
problems later.

Thanks,

Rob







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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Rob

Awesome news, thanks! :-)

Those concerns will have to be bounced to OSM Legal, so I'll forward both
your messages to me for comment.

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 10:41, rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging Culverts on Roads

[stevea]

On Feb 9, 2023, at 3:00 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 12:31, Andrew Hughes  wrote:
> And each culvert has a unique asset/ref identification (example Victorian 
> Dept of Transport, Structure Number == SN2252)
> 
> Sorry to be awkward, but do we have permission to use that data? 

Seems a perfectly reasonable question to me.  (No awkwardness felt from here).

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[talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[rob potter]

Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki

and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
started using the information but we are implementing a system of
validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
other agency consumption.*
*Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*

Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
problems later.

Thanks,

Rob
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Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 188, Issue 6

[rob potter]

Hi All,
> >
> >
> >
> > I am resurrecting this thread after quite a long time of silence. I think
> > it reached an impasse and went down a lot of rabbit holes. But I do need
> to
> > try my best to get resolution on this.
> >
> >
> >
> > To bring it back to life I will ask the question again, hopefully far
> more
> > clarity than I once did in 2020.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pretext: For many, culverts are considered to be road infrastructure
> (they
> > are even owned/managed by Govt. transport departments), while others
> > consider them to be part of the water course. These question(s) below are
> > in the context of those who consider them as road infrastructure. This
> > isn't a question around water courses that tag the culvert because that
> > already has a (good) tagging convention.
> >
> >
> >
> > Context:
> >
> > Given we have more than 50K culvert's
> >
> > And a culvert is considered to be part of the road infrastructure (and/or
> > independently a watercourse)
> >
> > And each culvert has a unique asset/ref identification (example Victorian
> > Dept of Transport, Structure Number == SN2252)
> >
> >
> >
> > Q: How should we create/tag each culvert so that it is (more than just
> > geographically) related to the road (way) including its asset/ref
> > identification?
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's a real world example:
> >
> >
> >
> > The culvert (structure SN2252) as GeoJSON can be seen here...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://geojson.io/#data=data:application/json,%7B%22id%22%3A%22SN2252%22%2C%22type%22%3A%22Feature%22%2C%22geometry%22%3A%7B%22type%22%3A%22Point%22%2C%22coordinates%22%3A%5B144.29174897%2C-37.098997806%5D%7D%2C%22properties%22%3A%7B%22LAT%22%3A-37.099%2C%22LONGIT%22%3A144.29175%2C%22Archived%22%3A%22N%22%2C%22OBJECTID%22%3A8626%2C%22CD_DIRECTION%22%3Anull%2C%22ID_STRUCTURE%22%3A%22SN2252%22%2C%22Archived_Reason%22%3A%22%20%22%2C%22FEATURE_CROSSED%22%3A%22UN-NAMED%20WATERCOURSE%22%2C%22LOCAL_ROAD_NAME%22%3A%222740%20PYRENEES%20HWY%22%2C%22COLLOQUIAL_NAME_1%22%3A%22%20%22%2C%22COLLOQUIAL_NAME_2%22%3Anull%2C%22COLLOQUIAL_NAME_3%22%3Anull%7D%7D
> >
> >
> >
> > The location in OSM is...
> >
> >
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=219077864#map=20/-37.09900/144.29175
> > or the closest node
> >
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=97560366#map=19/-37.09897/144.29190
> > <
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=97560366#map=19/-37.09897/144.29190
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I will leave it at that for now and let people respond with a fresh
> slate.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Everyone,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 20:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <
> > talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dec 2, 2020, 05:30 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:
> >
> > On 2/12/20 3:54 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dec 1, 2020, 01:17 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:
> >
> > On 1/12/20 12:18 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nov 30, 2020, 13:10 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:
> >
> > On 27/11/20 11:15 am, Andrew Hughes wrote:
> >
> > This subject has a long-running chequered past that hasn't reached a
> > conclusion
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:tunnel%3Dculvert#.22Tagging_controversy.22_section
> >
> >
> >
> > From my understanding, the convention is to tag the water course (i.e.
> > river/stream/creek) as tunnel=culvert. It's great as it models where
> water
> > traverses man made structures and I can see it helping many scenarios.
> > However, it doesn't help with road usage.
> >
> >
> >
> > We need to model/tag the culvert as part of the road infrastructure.
> >
> >
> >
> > Would a node that connects both road and water way be sufficient?
> >
> > That would break current tagging methods that do not merge in one node
> > vertically separated
> >
> > objects like culvert pipe under road or river under bridge or road under
> > road on a viaduct.
> >
> >
> >
> > OSM uses objects of different levels such as stairs to footways at a
> > singular shared node.
> >
> 

Re: [talk-au] Tagging Culverts on Roads

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 12:31, Andrew Hughes  wrote:

> And each culvert has a unique asset/ref identification (example Victorian
> Dept of Transport, Structure Number == SN2252)
>
>
Sorry to be awkward, but do we have permission to use that data?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging Trucks (hgv) "Use low gears"

[Warin]

On 8/2/23 16:07, Andrew Hughes wrote:

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the quick responses!

Andrew Harvey: traffic_sign=AU:R6-22,G9-83 seems better than 
traffic_sign=AU:R6-22;AU:G9-83  but I can see why you say both would 
be valid.
Q: Let's say there is also another sign "Zombies Ahead" that doesn't 
have a NTC code at the same location. Would that be separated with a 
semi-colon? and tagged as  traffic_sign=AU:R6-22,G9-83;Zombies Ahead


Graeme, ideally the "7km" is recorded in the tagging... mostly because 
some juro's do this so they don't need to place "end of  signage". 
But on that subject
Q: lots of signage such as G9-82 (see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Australia ) also includes 
the % slope. This is perhaps similar to the "7km" supplementary 
information on the sign and perhaps the same convention could apply to 
both. For example 
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-35.0542594599=138.5349290306=19.9%5B%5D=all=OpenStreetMap=798881551059257=photo=0.49105747415321865=0.5517154385592334=0





The '% slope' would be the key 'incline' that can simply be applied to 
the road way.
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