Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
> > Thanks Warin > > "take-home' has a whole new set of logistics issues. Trust me, the > gear is best left at the club. > But you are right when you declare that advertising the club's > presence is important for gaining new blood. > > And so, we're left with marketing versus paranoia f loss. as to > whether a club more openly advertises its existence on the internet. > That seems to be the main issue at task here. > > > Gary > > On 06/07/17 21:06, Warin wrote: >> Arr .. the old equipment is actual very nice once you get rid of the >> dirt, rust and replace the worn out rubber drives, electrical cables >> etc. >> I have a few local woodworkers around me and they favour the older >> gear. As in older .. say 25+ years. >> The fact that is cast iron means it is very heavy and so moving it is >> going to be a problem for theft. >> They will take the modern portable powered stuff .. easily sold on .. >> and that is easy to replace. >> The reason why they would target the club is that they see it as not >> as well protected as some other target. >> >> So - how to reduce the risk? Take the 'attractive' portable power >> tools home after each meeting? >> People may want to use them at home anyway, so loaning them out ... >> provided they come back or can be easily collected if required might >> be good. >> >> Could look at using OSM as a base map and then applying an overlay of >> the clubs area on top of that. >> But you will need your own website to display it and have a displayed >> means of contacting the individual clubs .. >> Once that is displayed then anyone can contact the club - find out >> where it is and when meetings are not taking place and target them. >> The anti theft thing gains little.. and the loss is that it is not >> displayed/advertised on the OSM map which has a wide audience - most >> cell phone users have an OSM source map on their phone. >> Unless the club wants to hide away and not have any new blood then I >> see little advantage in not advertising the clubs presence .. >> particularly to people local in the area. >> >> On 06-Jul-17 08:21 PM, Gary Pope wrote: >>> Warin >>> >>> All good input - agreed.The generic use of >>> 'president.@gmail.com is already well adhered to. >>> And the matter of searching in the end or the Club as a second step >>> I agree with. It is in fact, from a security/risk point of view, >>> all about mitigating the risks. The outright purpose was to simply >>> ascertain, where , in this fine country, are the 180 clubs. Once >>> people know that one is nearby, then they can resort to other search >>> methodologies t finally find it. >>> >>> Interesting tonight after getting a few terrific replies like >>> yours, to ascertain the real issues legally, technically amd >>> emotionally, and we start asking questions like: >>> >>> 'Who would ant to knock off some 15 year old, outdated machinery >>> anyway?"versus the fact that jewellery companies and cash based >>> firms are already all over the OSM maps - so why would a robber >>> suddenly think woodworking clubs are a target ? >>> >>> >>> You and I are on the same page, Warin. They point still remains, >>> that there are committees on these clubs who remain paranoid, or in >>> fact, sensibly smart, in ensuring that ANY risk of an impact on >>> their not-for-profit club is worth safeguarding. So, if a MAP were >>> to make it 1% easier to FIND such clubs, then such a MAP should be >>> avoided. That's the impression I'm coming too, as I read and >>> evaluate everyone's answers. But the sad conclusion is, that we're >>> running scared of a 1% chance of impact, versus the terrific help >>> and awareness of how to join and enjoy such clubs, could attain. >>> And it is that LAST point that motivates me to find a solution. >>> >>> Thanks, Warin! >>> >>> Appreciate you, like other too, to find time to reply to my >>> passionate query, >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> >>> On 06/07/17 19:43, Warin wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> Andrew has it correct ... the map shows the actual location. Many >>>> things on the map could be targets for theft - car mechanics >>>> garages for instance. >>>> Sorry but I don't see anyway that an area can be mapped for a club >>&g
Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Warin
All good input - agreed. The generic use of
'president.@gmail.com is already well adhered
to. And the matter of searching in the end or the Club as a second
step I agree with. It is in fact, from a security/risk point of
view, all about mitigating the risks. The outright purpose was to
simply ascertain, where , in this fine country, are the 180 clubs.
Once people know that one is nearby, then they can resort to other
search methodologies t finally find it.
Interesting tonight after getting a few terrific replies like
yours, to ascertain the real issues legally, technically amd
emotionally, and we start asking questions like:
'Who would ant to knock off some 15 year old, outdated machinery
anyway?" versus the fact that jewellery companies and cash based
firms are already all over the OSM maps - so why would a robber
suddenly think woodworking clubs are a target ?
You and I are on the same page, Warin. They point still remains,
that there are committees on these clubs who remain paranoid, or in
fact, sensibly smart, in ensuring that ANY risk of an impact on
their not-for-profit club is worth safeguarding. So, if a MAP were
to make it 1% easier to FIND such clubs, then such a MAP should be
avoided. That's the impression I'm coming too, as I read and
evaluate everyone's answers. But the sad conclusion is, that we're
running scared of a 1% chance of impact, versus the terrific help
and awareness of how to join and enjoy such clubs, could attain.
And it is that LAST point that motivates me to find a solution.
Thanks, Warin!
Appreciate you, like other too, to find time to reply to my
passionate query,
Gary
On 06/07/17 19:43, Warin wrote:
Hi,
Andrew has it correct ... the map shows the actual location.
Many things on the map could be targets for theft - car
mechanics garages for instance.
Sorry but I don't see anyway that an area can be mapped for a
club workshop,
the address will be found to anyone who really wants it, all
that putting it in OSM does is makes it a little easier.
A google search on woodworking clubs gets a few hits - most of
them with addresses.
As for spam emails and emails to past office holders .. too
easy?
Email for club secretary? sidney.woodwork.club.secret...@gmail.com
as an example -
The gmail account can be past from one office holder to the
next.
Gmail does filter spam somewhat too.
This may go against gmails rules .. contact them and see if they
can understand the requirement and if they would accept it.
Phone numbers are some what harder unless you have a landline at
the club premises - there you can forward a call to another
number .. and that number can be kept up to date for the present
contact person.
You will probably need to pay for 2 landlines - incoming and
outgoing - and some equipment to do the job.
If that is too much - a simple landline going to a message
recorder would be very easy.
On 06-Jul-17 05:50 PM, Gary Pope wrote:
Andrew
I think you've explained well, the approach here. The purpose
of OSM and my desire for a map showing general directory of
clubs is indeed a mismatch. But nonetheless, worthy of trying,
I hope you'd agree.
Until a solution for overcoming the risk or the fear of exposing
the location of the actual clubs is found, then pure OSM
appears not to be the way forward. But for those (like the six
example cases) that do want to promote their location, then
the way we already have it (minimal info to ensure no spam to
emails or unsolicited calls to phone numbers, or tagging out of
date names of committee members for instance) - then that aspect
was already a goer.
I'll standby for some more terrific feedback from this question
posed today. Thanks for your insight, Andrew.
Gary
On 06/07/17 17:34, Andrew Harvey
wrote:
Hi Gary,
I think that the options are either tag the exact
location as club=woodwork or leave it out of OSM. So I don't
agree with adding it on the suburb or locality. OSM is a
geographic database not a business directory, so we don't
have any way to add business without an exact location on
the ground.
Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Thanks Simon The 'phone' is not a problem any more, since we thought it best to just lave that out, to avoid the issue. WE felt that having the existence of the club in the 'area' as being sufficient to allow people to pursue further investigation about where the club ultimately is, and where to find it. The thing is, 'clubs' often have obscure names that relate to something other than the town, and this is why they are hard to find.. The OSM map was behind the thinking, as to how to address that one issue. But then upon reflection we started to discover all the privacy and risk factors associated with mapping them. Thanks for your input tonight. We decided NOT to include phone numbers at all, to avoid phone spamming by allegeed telecommunication, power and insurance companies and the like, to avoid frustration by clubs who just want to craft wood. I'm left with Andrew's fine comment s so far. Gaz On 06/07/17 19:34, Simon Slater wrote: On Thursday, 6 July 2017 4:48:50 PM AEST Gary Pope wrote: In fact our first draft attempt was to include the phone and email, but we soon realised that would just be a cause for spam to the email addresses, and unsolicited phone calls to the owners. PLus, committees change every year (or so), so there cannot be a 'contact' per se. Clubs often have a Public Officer. This title could be the contact "person", irrespective of the appointed person, with official PO box for mail and clubhouse phone for calling. If the OP is in personal contact with clubs about this and privacy is a concern, then a suggestion of answer-phone on at the clubhouse or cheap mobile gives a phone contact. Then the frequency of answering and other details on the message leave contactability totally to the club. -- -- Gary A. Pope B.Bus(ACC) DIRECTOR Alchester Business Systems m: 0408-994799 anytime. p: 03-97626293 e: g...@alchester.com.au w: www.alchester.com.au Remote: Communications powered by ABSoutback3! “We take care of everything!" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Andrew I think you've explained well, the approach here. The purpose of OSM and my desire for a map showing general directory of clubs is indeed a mismatch. But nonetheless, worthy of trying, I hope you'd agree. Until a solution for overcoming the risk or the fear of exposing the location of the actual clubs is found, then pure OSM appears not to be the way forward. But for those (like the six example cases) that do want to promote their location, then the way we already have it (minimal info to ensure no spam to emails or unsolicited calls to phone numbers, or tagging out of date names of committee members for instance) - then that aspect was already a goer. I'll standby for some more terrific feedback from this question posed today. Thanks for your insight, Andrew. Gary On 06/07/17 17:34, Andrew Harvey wrote: Hi Gary, I think that the options are either tag the exact location as club=woodwork or leave it out of OSM. So I don't agree with adding it on the suburb or locality. OSM is a geographic database not a business directory, so we don't have any way to add business without an exact location on the ground. If you'd like to only have a map at the suburb/locality level I think it's a perfect use case of having your own data on top of OSM using something like umap https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/, geojson.io http://geojson.io/, or Mapbox https://www.mapbox.com (full disclosure, I work with Mapbox). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- -- Gary A. Pope B.Bus(ACC) DIRECTOR Alchester Business Systems m: 0408-994799 anytime. p: 03-97626293 e: g...@alchester.com.au w: www.alchester.com.au Remote: Communications powered by ABSoutback3! “We take care of everything!" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Thanks Kye I'm wondering if the issue of 'awareness of a service/facility' in an 'area' rather than pinpointing to a GPS location, is something that OSM can handle. I know I'm seeking to relate a non-tangible 'aspect' to what is really a tangible physical location, but so many things in a town are 'aspects/features' that don't pysically reside at one single point - nor are they a WAY or a bounded AREA either. Apologies again, if we're trying to put OSM to the wrong purpose. My answer to Ben in last response, where club names don't sound like a town location, is what makes alternative lists on websites a non-solution too, whereas a MAP perfectly illustrates that a club is 'nearby'. I'll now struggle for an analogy, but let me try. It's a bit like trying to MAP the 'rough' locations of where whale watching is best to observe, and the answers are: Cape Bridgewater, Portland and Warrnambool, but we don't necessarily want to pinpoint the GPS location of one specific beach location to drive too. Howeverm a n OSM map, bounded by an overall restriction (say Australia only) would permit three DOTS to appear around the Shipwreck coast to demonstrate that's the place to go for whales. . back to tracking the 180 woodworking clubs. Gary On 06/07/17 16:31, Kye Webb wrote: I have to agree with Ben.. It doesn't make sense to add tags to the place node. If the contact details were added to the place node, a thieve could pretend to be a new member and get the address... depends on your member enrollment system. I am going to assume many businesses tagged in osm have valuable equipment readily available for thieves. On Jul 6, 2017 at 4:17 pm, <Ben Kelley> wrote: Hi. I think if the club has a location, then map a node at the club's location. (e.g. some type of amenity tag) Use the normal tags for contact details (phone number, web site). I don't think it makes sense to add tags to the place node. - Ben. On 6/7/17 16:04, Gary Pope wrote: Intent: Would like to tag locations of many woodworking club houses around Australia Issue: * Woodworking clubs like to attract new members, or visiting members from other clubs * Woodworking clubs often contain expensive machinery - theft target * But they do have websites that we can link to * Some don't have websites, but newsletters (pdf) * If newsletters are linked to, they often contain personal names & phone numbers Proposal: * Add a tag to suburbs (place=suburb) that have woodworking clubs. Such as: * place=suburb, club:woodwork=yes, club:woodwork:website=website.org * Add a tag to woodwork clubs that want their clubhouse location known, such as: * club=woodwork (note craft/shop=woodwork would be wrong, as these places are not for commercial use) * Contact woodwork clubs and ask them if / how they wish to be tagged * Worst case scenario would be to create a separate database and host that as an overlay to OSM Issues: * Which tag(s) to use * Tagging suburbs with woodwork club facilities (Would very much like to know if this is ok, or if there are alternatives) * Legal issues (privacy?) if we were to link to newsletters * Woodworking club houses are often owned by the council, but can be privately owned - some extra info Any feedback would be very welcome. For testing purposes we have identified 6 'example' clubs that don't mind their full exposure right to an address. https://overpass-turbo.eu/?w="club"%3D"woodwork"+global&R But feedback from various parties suggest it might be better to have a POINTER only at a SUBURB level, along with some sort of description that demonstrates that there is a 'club' in the area "nearby" --
Re: [talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Thanks Ben We have an opposing pair of issues here. On the one hand people are keen to know there is a woodclub in the town, and if you're a traveller, then a point on a map would really help understand you are 'near' a club. On the other hand, clubs feel vulnerable to any technology that can far too quickly pinpoint the location of their equipment/assets/facilities. So in a way I know what we're posing here, is counter-intuitive to ultimately knowing WHERE the real club is located (for honest enquiries), versus an implementation that tries to protect club from bad elements who could otherwise troll the 'map' to find their next theft target. It's the old one bad apple makes life miserable for all the honest folk, scenario. In fact our first draft attempt was to include the phone and email, but we soon realised that would just be a cause for spam to the email addresses, and unsolicited phone calls to the owners. PLus, committees change every year (or so), so there cannot be a 'contact' per se. Of the 180+ clubs throughout Australia, we were trying to solve the issue of simply knowing whether a club is nearby to anybody seeking a 'nearby' club, particularly if they are travelling on holidays and seeking to catch up with like minded people. In the past, we've had static websites listing all the clubs, but some have names that don't relate to their location, and this makes it so much harder to share information with fellow club members about where another club might otherwise be located, nearby to where THEY are. IE: travelling through Gippsland and wondering if a club is in the area? Aha" yes there's one on the map at Nambrok. Few people in Australia would know where Nambrok is, unless they lived in Central Gippsland. (see the south-east corner of the example URL we're testing.) So, for those clubs (other than the 6 we have been testing), who want anonymity of physical address, we were seeking to discover some other OpenstreetMAP possible approach to declaring that a club is 'in the area' which would then prompt people to look up the name of that club with other search tools to discover what the club is actually prepared to disclose on the internet (ie: leaving it to THEM about how their website is found with a search engine, by club name). For instance, my club is called: Know and District Woodworkers Club INC. But it is in Ferntree Gully, VIC. Visitors from interstate may have no idea where Ferntree Gully is, nor would they understand that KNOX is the name of the council here, let alone that there is a woodworking club in such as area. I apologise if we sound like we want to use OSM but can't, but this map approach to knowing clubs are in the area, is winning hearts (on the one hand), but not being acceptable for privacy and property RISK issues. Hence my exploring 2nd best options. Thanks Ben. Gary On 06/07/17 16:17, Ben Kelley wrote: Hi. I think if the club has a location, then map a node at the club's location. (e.g. some type of amenity tag) Use the normal tags for contact details (phone number, web site). I don't think it makes sense to add tags to the place node. - Ben. On 6/7/17 16:04, Gary Pope wrote: Intent: Would like to tag locations of many woodworking club houses around Australia Issue: * Woodworking clubs like to attract new members, or visiting members from other clubs * Woodworking clubs often contain expensive machinery - theft target * But they do have websites that we can link to * Some don't have websites, but newsletters (pdf) * If newsletters are linked to, they often contain personal names & phone numbers Proposal: * Add a tag to suburbs (place=suburb) that have woodworking clubs. Such as: * place=suburb, club:woodwork=yes, club:woodwork:website=website.org * Add a tag to woodwork clubs that want their clubhouse location known, such as: * club=woodwork (note craft/shop=woodwork would be wrong, as these places are not for commercial use) * Contact woodwork clubs and ask them if / how they wish to be tagged * Worst case scenario would be to create a separate database and host that as an overlay to OSM Issues: * Which tag(s) to use * Tagging suburbs with woodwork club facilities (Would very much like to know if this is ok, or if there are alternatives) * Legal issues (privacy?) if we were to link to newsletters * Woodworking club houses
[talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse
Intent: Would like to tag locations of many woodworking club houses around Australia Issue: * Woodworking clubs like to attract new members, or visiting members from other clubs * Woodworking clubs often contain expensive machinery - theft target * But they do have websites that we can link to * Some don't have websites, but newsletters (pdf) * If newsletters are linked to, they often contain personal names & phone numbers Proposal: * Add a tag to suburbs (place=suburb) that have woodworking clubs. Such as: * place=suburb, club:woodwork=yes, club:woodwork:website=website.org * Add a tag to woodwork clubs that want their clubhouse location known, such as: * club=woodwork (note craft/shop=woodwork would be wrong, as these places are not for commercial use) * Contact woodwork clubs and ask them if / how they wish to be tagged * Worst case scenario would be to create a separate database and host that as an overlay to OSM Issues: * Which tag(s) to use * Tagging suburbs with woodwork club facilities (Would very much like to know if this is ok, or if there are alternatives) * Legal issues (privacy?) if we were to link to newsletters * Woodworking club houses are often owned by the council, but can be privately owned - some extra info Any feedback would be very welcome. For testing purposes we have identified 6 'example' clubs that don't mind their full exposure right to an address. https://overpass-turbo.eu/?w="club"%3D"woodwork"+global&R But feedback from various parties suggest it might be better to have a POINTER only at a SUBURB level, along with some sort of description that demonstrates that there is a 'club' in the area "nearby" -- -- Gary A. Pope B.Bus(ACC) DIRECTOR Alchester Business Systems m: 0408-994799 anytime. p: 03-97626293 e: g...@alchester.com.au w: www.alchester.com.au Remote: Communications powered by ABSoutback3! “We take care of everything!" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
