Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

I hope this passes your legal Rob. My takeaway is that your implementation
shouldn't rely on the OSMF's APIs or data downloads being available, so
your operations and use of OSM data would not be impacted if these services
weren't available or were returning unexpected responses.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 at 09:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Hi Rob
>
> Response received from Legal:
>
> " The OSM Terms of Use do not impose any addition restrictions on the use
> of the OpenStreetMap geodatabase beyond the terms of ODbL.
> We do prohibit the emergencies services and anything similarly
> time-sensitive from using OSM Services directly because OSM does not
> guarantee uptime or responsiveness. However, while OSM Services include
> *data distribution*, they do not include the *data itself*. Thus, the
> Department is free to download the planet file and use the data purely
> under the terms of ODbL, but should not rely on the existence or freshness
> of the planet file download."
>
> So you should be fine to go with it, as long as everybody realises that
> OSM is still only updated by volunteers, so could potentially have issues.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 10:41, rob potter  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
>> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
>> 
>>  and
>> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>>
>> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
>> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
>> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
>> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
>> other agency consumption.*
>> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
>> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
>> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
>> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
>> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
>> doing so); or"*
>>
>> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will
>> enhance the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want
>> to cause problems later.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
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>>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Rob

Response received from Legal:

" The OSM Terms of Use do not impose any addition restrictions on the use
of the OpenStreetMap geodatabase beyond the terms of ODbL.
We do prohibit the emergencies services and anything similarly
time-sensitive from using OSM Services directly because OSM does not
guarantee uptime or responsiveness. However, while OSM Services include
*data distribution*, they do not include the *data itself*. Thus, the
Department is free to download the planet file and use the data purely
under the terms of ODbL, but should not rely on the existence or freshness
of the planet file download."

So you should be fine to go with it, as long as everybody realises that OSM
is still only updated by volunteers, so could potentially have issues.

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 10:41, rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au]

Feb 11, 2023, 11:38 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
> On 10/2/23 12:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>> Hi legal-questions, 
>>
>> I'm forwarding this interesting question about the OSMF  Terms of 
>> Use preventing anyone from obtaining OSM data for  emergency 
>> services use. This is in direct conflict with the  ODBL terms which 
>> contain no such restriction, and also include  a limitation of 
>> liability clause. Surely other emergency  services organisations are 
>> using OSM data without issue.
>>
>
> I too think it is a legal cop out for liability.
>
>
> I think there are some emergency services in Europe using OSM  data 
> already .. so if I am correct then it is possible (as it  should be in a 
> reasonable world). 
>
>
It was (and maybe still is) in production use for emergency services in Poland.

Partially replacing official data, partially supplementing it.

Legal situation got better in Poland but at some point official mapping agency 
was
legally required to charge prohibitive fees, also from emergency services.

And - as far as I know - there is no government register of fire hydrants or 
AED in Poland.
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 20:37, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think there are some emergency services in Europe using OSM data already
> .. so if I am correct then it is possible (as it should be in a reasonable
> world).
>
Yeah, I've previously seen comments from people in the US that their
Counties Emergency Services use OSM as it shows all the back roads & so on

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Warin]

On 10/2/23 12:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:

Hi legal-questions,

I'm forwarding this interesting question about the OSMF Terms of Use 
preventing anyone from obtaining OSM data for emergency services use. 
This is in direct conflict with the ODBL terms which contain no such 
restriction, and also include a limitation of liability clause. Surely 
other emergency services organisations are using OSM data without issue.



I too think it is a legal cop out for liability.

I think there are some emergency services in Europe using OSM data 
already .. so if I am correct then it is possible (as it should be in a 
reasonable world).


See https://www.openstreetmap.us/2021/06/map-for-emergency/

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 12:24, Andrew Harvey  
wrote:


Hi Rob,

Interesting point you raise!

While on the surface you'd think terms (from the OSMF Terms of Use

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses)
only ask you not to use OSMF services like the website, API for
those purposes and not the data, it includes "data distribution".

I suggest you raise this on the legal talk mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk and/or
directly with the OSMF legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org
(https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact).

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 11:41, rob potter  wrote:

Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of
Transport and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap
Wiki


 and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our
operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the
road data use is supplied to our emergency services fire and
ambulance.  We have not started using the information but we
are implementing a system of validation and change detection,
then produce an authoritative version for other agency
consumption.*
/*_Unlawful and other unauthorized uses_ include a clause
"Operate dangerous businesses such as emergency services or
air traffic control, where the use or failure of the Services
could lead to death, personal injury or significant property
damage;" and "Store data available through the Services in
order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*/
/
/
Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we
will enhance the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but
really do not want to cause problems later.

Thanks,

Rob
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Davidson]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 11:41 AM rob potter  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport and 
> Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki and we are looking to 
> consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

Sounds interesting. Another OSM policy that you'll need to know about
is https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines

Looking down the list of things that you are planning on doing I note
that one of the items on the list is "Tram and Bus stops". It would be
really helpful if you could get PTV to sign the required waiver
(https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Waiver_and_Permission_Templates)
to let us use the data in OSM. We've got an active group of mappers in
Vic that want to do public transport mapping but are being held back
by the fact that we've been trying to get permission since 2019 to use
the data.

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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi legal-questions,

I'm forwarding this interesting question about the OSMF Terms of Use
preventing anyone from obtaining OSM data for emergency services use. This
is in direct conflict with the ODBL terms which contain no such
restriction, and also include a limitation of liability clause. Surely
other emergency services organisations are using OSM data without issue.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 12:24, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> Hi Rob,
>
> Interesting point you raise!
>
> While on the surface you'd think terms (from the OSMF Terms of Use
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses)
> only ask you not to use OSMF services like the website, API for those
> purposes and not the data, it includes "data distribution".
>
> I suggest you raise this on the legal talk mailing list
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk and/or directly with
> the OSMF legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact).
>
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 11:41, rob potter  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
>> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
>> 
>>  and
>> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>>
>> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
>> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
>> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
>> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
>> other agency consumption.*
>> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
>> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
>> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
>> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
>> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
>> doing so); or"*
>>
>> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will
>> enhance the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want
>> to cause problems later.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[stevea]

My local chapter of OSM is in the USA (OSM-US), but yes, I think you (all) are 
on the right approach here:  the "Australia / Oceania Chapter" (I think it is, 
or is called) as a semi-formal sub-community within OSM, or even an "official" 
chapter, is the "first stop" along the way of this sort of "thread the legal 
needle" here, then it might go to the Foundation (LWG, Legal Working Group, I 
believe) as a "they'll figure it out" last stop, perhaps.

So, now at the regional level, maybe at the "global, legal" level (the 
Foundation's LWG) if not fully "resolved" at the regional / Oceania level.

Sorry to be a bit hazy, but it should come into better focus soon; somewhere 
around there, it WILL get resolved.
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi Rob,

Interesting point you raise!

While on the surface you'd think terms (from the OSMF Terms of Use
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses)
only ask you not to use OSMF services like the website, API for those
purposes and not the data, it includes "data distribution".

I suggest you raise this on the legal talk mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk and/or directly with
the OSMF legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Contact).

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 11:41, rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[forster]

Hi Rob

A warm welcome to you and the Department of Transport to OSM (just  
speaking for myself, one of over 8 million contributors.)


Its an exciting time for me to be an OSM contributor as OSM is  
becoming the preferred map for so many.


Sorry if I have missed something but this post confused me and may  
perplex many on this list.


You appear to be asking a legal question, is it allowed to use OSM  
data to "Operate dangerous businesses such as emergency services or  
air traffic control"

This text appears to be a quote from the https://wiki.osmfoundation.org.

You did the right thing approaching the community first but there may  
not be too many lawyers on this list. Maybe the osmfoundation will  
have to reply


Good luck, I hope that we can work together.

Tony
(One of 8 million volunteers)


Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki

and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
started using the information but we are implementing a system of
validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
other agency consumption.*
*Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*

Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
problems later.

Thanks,

Rob







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Re: [talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Rob

Awesome news, thanks! :-)

Those concerns will have to be bounced to OSM Legal, so I'll forward both
your messages to me for comment.

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 10:41, rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
> ___
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[talk-au] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[rob potter]

Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki

and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
started using the information but we are implementing a system of
validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
other agency consumption.*
*Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*

Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
problems later.

Thanks,

Rob
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