Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Joel H.]

I noticed this dataset too, but could never figure out how to open it
with JOSM.

Andrew Harvey, have you checked out these files? And do you have any
plans to convert them?


If we plan on doing a wider scale import I would suggest separating each
stream into its own .osm file so we could check each waterway and make a
decision to replace or not.


On 30/10/18 10:25 pm, nwastra wrote:
> /Hi/
> /Regarding GeoScience Australia Surface Hydrology datasets /
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Catalogue 
> https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/1186e898-14b5-812e-e053-10a3070a76f0'
>   and the polygons and points layers
> The watercources are flagged as perennial or not.
> Should all non-perennial be tagged as intermittent?
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 06:53, Andrew Davidson  wrote:
> Perennial streams are pretty rare in Australia. If you used the literal never 
> stops flowing definition, there would be almost none.

Downstream of dams are commonly perennial since the dam will often let
through a constant flow to maintain creek health.

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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Davidson]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 00:05 nwastra,  wrote:

>
> *Should all those flagged as non-perennial be tagged as intermittent?
>

Yes.

Seems to be too few perennial but as others have mentioned Australian
> watercourses are predominantly intermittent.


Perennial streams are pretty rare in Australia. If you used the literal
never stops flowing definition, there would be almost none.

>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[nwastra]

More specifically...

The watercourses are flagged as perennial or non-perennial or null

*Should all those flagged as non-perennial be tagged as intermittent?

Seems to be too few perennial but as others have mentioned Australian 
watercourses are predominantly intermittent.
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[talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[nwastra]

Hi
Regarding GeoScience Australia Surface Hydrology datasets 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Catalogue 
 
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/1186e898-14b5-812e-e053-10a3070a76f0'
 

  and the polygons and points layers

The watercources are flagged as perennial or not.
Should all non-perennial be tagged as intermittent?

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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Warin]

On 21/05/18 19:16, cleary wrote:


I am struggling with how to use "ephemeral" rather than the "intermittent" tag, 
particularly when it comes to on-the-ground verification.


Good point. However ...
If the Todd River is ephemeral then by extrapolation other waterways in the 
surrounding area would be too.
Knowing the weather patterns where rain fall is nothing for years and then a 
few years worth within some days would suggest that
these areas have ephemeral water ways too. So, how is you knowledge of rainfall 
patterns? :)



I have travelled in some rural and outback areas in western NSW and Queensland 
and, to a lesser extent, in South Australia.  I also regularly look at 
satellite imagery. If I see a waterway or lake without water, I am comfortable 
to add the intermittent tag. But I don't see every waterway and lake often 
enough to know how often the water flows. And satellite imagery is just a 
snapshot at one moment, perhaps several years ago. How can one expect to verify 
the frequency or duration of water flow? Another concern is that the total area 
of a lake may be covered with water only occasionally but half the area may be 
covered in water much more of the time. Do we try to work out which part of the 
lake is ephemeral and which is intermittent?


When Lake Eye has some water in it .. where it is will depend on which way the 
wind is blowing .. it is that flat due to the salt layer.
However Lake Eyre would be intermittent .. as there is water in it or more than 
5 weeks .. when it is full,
so it does not comply with the ephemeral 'majority of the time' .. at least for 
me.



I understand why it may be useful to map water areas differently if they are 
not always filled with water. But trying to pictorially represent the dimension 
of time on a two-dimensional map and somehow show multiple degrees of absence 
of water, has me puzzled.

I don't think we would try to map roads differently according to whether they 
carry traffic all the time, some  of the time, or  just occasionally.

I will work with whatever the community agrees, but I need help to understand 
how to verify ephemeral as distinct from intermittent when mapping waterways 
and lakes.


That help? I'll add it to the ephemeral page.

A side issue ... the meaning of 'intermittent' is poorly defined on the OSM 
wiki .. and some have taken it to be so similar to seasonal they are applying 
both tags.
 I think seasonal is not rendered and intermittent is .. and that could be 
motivation for some to apply the intermittent tags to the seasonal waterways...



  



On Mon, May 21, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Warin wrote:

I have started a draft for ephemeral.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral

On 19/05/18 12:08, Ian Sergeant wrote:


   On 19/05/18 11:38, Ian Sergeant wrote:

flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?

On 19 May 2018 at 11:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


'ephemeral=yes' matches the present use of 'intermittent=yes'. I like at
least some consistency in the tagging.

I think you picked the wrong mapping project :-)

Yep. landuse=grass ... stupid.


The issue here of course, is that the next tag will something=yes.
Ugliness.  Best to fix it now.

The properties keys are all this way. So I follow the crowd, as
convincing the crowd is probably required.
Changing all of them would be a mammoth task. Changing one tag ..
landuse=grass ... is just a little less of a challenge.


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[cleary]

I am struggling with how to use "ephemeral" rather than the "intermittent" tag, 
particularly when it comes to on-the-ground verification.

I have travelled in some rural and outback areas in western NSW and Queensland 
and, to a lesser extent, in South Australia.  I also regularly look at 
satellite imagery. If I see a waterway or lake without water, I am comfortable 
to add the intermittent tag. But I don't see every waterway and lake often 
enough to know how often the water flows. And satellite imagery is just a 
snapshot at one moment, perhaps several years ago. How can one expect to verify 
the frequency or duration of water flow? Another concern is that the total area 
of a lake may be covered with water only occasionally but half the area may be 
covered in water much more of the time. Do we try to work out which part of the 
lake is ephemeral and which is intermittent? 

I understand why it may be useful to map water areas differently if they are 
not always filled with water. But trying to pictorially represent the dimension 
of time on a two-dimensional map and somehow show multiple degrees of absence 
of water, has me puzzled.

I don't think we would try to map roads differently according to whether they 
carry traffic all the time, some  of the time, or  just occasionally.

I will work with whatever the community agrees, but I need help to understand 
how to verify ephemeral as distinct from intermittent when mapping waterways 
and lakes.


 


On Mon, May 21, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Warin wrote:
> I have started a draft for ephemeral.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral
> 
> On 19/05/18 12:08, Ian Sergeant wrote:
> 
> >   On 19/05/18 11:38, Ian Sergeant wrote:
> >> flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?
> > On 19 May 2018 at 11:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 'ephemeral=yes' matches the present use of 'intermittent=yes'. I like at
> >> least some consistency in the tagging.
> > I think you picked the wrong mapping project :-)
> 
> Yep. landuse=grass ... stupid.
> 
> >
> > The issue here of course, is that the next tag will something=yes.
> > Ugliness.  Best to fix it now.
> 
> The properties keys are all this way. So I follow the crowd, as 
> convincing the crowd is probably required.
> Changing all of them would be a mammoth task. Changing one tag .. 
> landuse=grass ... is just a little less of a challenge.
> 
> 
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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Warin]

I have started a draft for ephemeral.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral

On 19/05/18 12:08, Ian Sergeant wrote:


  On 19/05/18 11:38, Ian Sergeant wrote:

flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?

On 19 May 2018 at 11:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


'ephemeral=yes' matches the present use of 'intermittent=yes'. I like at
least some consistency in the tagging.

I think you picked the wrong mapping project :-)


Yep. landuse=grass ... stupid.



The issue here of course, is that the next tag will something=yes.
Ugliness.  Best to fix it now.


The properties keys are all this way. So I follow the crowd, as convincing the 
crowd is probably required.
Changing all of them would be a mammoth task. Changing one tag .. landuse=grass 
... is just a little less of a challenge.


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Ian Sergeant]

 On 19/05/18 11:38, Ian Sergeant wrote:
> flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?

On 19 May 2018 at 11:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 'ephemeral=yes' matches the present use of 'intermittent=yes'. I like at
> least some consistency in the tagging.

I think you picked the wrong mapping project :-)

The issue here of course, is that the next tag will something=yes.
Ugliness.  Best to fix it now.

Ian.

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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Warin]

On 19/05/18 11:38, Ian Sergeant wrote:

On 19 May 2018 at 11:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


Some are using stream=ephemeral ... low usage.
I'd rather go with ephemeral=yes as that then can be used on 'lakes' and
other things.

flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?

Ian.



'ephemeral=yes' matches the present use of 'intermittent=yes'. I like at 
least some consistency in the tagging.



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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Ian Sergeant]

On 19 May 2018 at 11:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some are using stream=ephemeral ... low usage.
> I'd rather go with ephemeral=yes as that then can be used on 'lakes' and
> other things.

flow=ephemeral, maybe.  water-presence=ephemeral?

Ian.

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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Warin]

On 19/05/18 11:02, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 16/05/18 07:35, Warin wrote:
Many inland waters in Australia are 'intermittent' meaning they only 
flow when there is rain and that rain may only occur every 5 years or 
so on average.


The vast majority of Australian stream are non-perennial. The WSJ has 
a cool slider that shows this:


http://graphics.wsj.com/documents/wsj_sliders14/AustralianStreams

There are a least two problems for Australian mapping:

1. There is no OSM tag for ephemeral streams. On a stream length basis 
the majority of Australian streams are ephemeral.


Some are using stream=ephemeral ... low usage.
I'd rather go with ephemeral=yes as that then can be used on 'lakes' and 
other things.




2. There is no OSM tag for the end of a watercourse. This causes 
problems for validators because they can't tell if a stream finishes 
because the mapper gave up or the stream itself just peters out.


I did strike one stream that flowed in to a river .. at both ends!! That 
had me puzzled. I tracked it back using topo information to find it went 
over a saddle, so I mapped it as flowing away from the saddle on both 
sides ..


As for indicating an 'end' ... maybe exit=underground on the last node ???


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Davidson]

On 16/05/18 23:26, Andrew Harvey wrote:


GA also has a Surface Hydrology dataset [2] [3] [4] which could be used 
as well.


+1

This is a good source as it covers all of the country and in effect has 
the datasets from the states we already have permission from. It's also 
useful for getting the name of the stream and they flag streams as being 
perennial or not.


The downside is that the data comes from a range of mapping some of 
which includes the 1:250,000 NatMap series, so the streams can be quite 
inaccurate in places.


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Davidson]

On 16/05/18 08:51, Ewen Hill wrote:

There are also a number of areas I think in SA that have been inundated by
streams from a data source and these could possibly be trimmed back. Flood
water on flat deserts will make its own mind up next time. I would be really
keen to hear more and thank you for your time in improving the map.


My personal view is that there is not much point in mapping unnamed 
streams. By only bothering with the named streams you are in effect 
applying something like the Wikipedia notability test.


I know the bit of SA you are referring to and it is a bit of a mess 
because only the SA part of the streams have been imported and they all 
get cut off at the NT border.


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Davidson]

On 16/05/18 07:35, Warin wrote:
Many inland waters in Australia are 'intermittent' meaning they only 
flow when there is rain and that rain may only occur every 5 years or so 
on average.


The vast majority of Australian stream are non-perennial. The WSJ has a 
cool slider that shows this:


http://graphics.wsj.com/documents/wsj_sliders14/AustralianStreams

There are a least two problems for Australian mapping:

1. There is no OSM tag for ephemeral streams. On a stream length basis 
the majority of Australian streams are ephemeral.


2. There is no OSM tag for the end of a watercourse. This causes 
problems for validators because they can't tell if a stream finishes 
because the mapper gave up or the stream itself just peters out.


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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Phil (The Geek) Wyatt]

Hi folks,

 

Bay or river closing lines are defined here

 

http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/marine/jurisdiction/maritime-boundary-definitions

 

There is also the GA Coastline which may help

 

http://services.ga.gov.au/site_11/rest/services/Global_Map_Project_Australian_Base_Map/MapServer/6

 

 

Cheers - Phil

 

 

From: Andrew Wiseman [mailto:andrew_wise...@apple.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 10:07 AM
To: OSM Australian Talk List
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

 

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions everyone, that’s very helpful. We have 
also added AGRI to our list of sources.

 

Where the inland water meets the coastlines, we have seen a few different 
styles of modeling so I wanted to see if you had a local policy about it. 

 

In some cases we’ve seen things like this, where the coastline goes very far 
upstream: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/14763476#map=11/-12.4279/132.4683 

 

In other cases, the coastline is farther downstream, like where the Pine River 
stops here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/159813122#map=14/-27.2842/153.0761

 

We were thinking the second example is better. If that’s the case for the 
Alligator River we would put the coastline here (which is also where the GA 
Surface Hydrology polygon has the river starting) 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-12.2296501875 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-12.2296501875=132.402678198#map=15/-12.2293/132.4083>
 =132.402678198#map=15/-12.2293/132.4083 and change the existing coastline 
to riverbank.

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew


Andrew Wiseman |  Maps | andrew_wise...@apple.com

 

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use or dissemination of this message, and any attachments in whole or in part 
is strictly prohibited.

 

 





On May 16, 2018, at 9:26 AM, Andrew Harvey <andrew.harv...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Agreed with Warin and Ewen.

 

I'd like to point out the AGRI imagery [1], yes it's old (2006-2011), black and 
white, and missing parts of the imagery due to cloud and seams, but it may help 
as an extra source to compare. It's good enough to make out rivers and it 
should be accurate positionally since it was validated with ground surveys. CC 
BY 4.0 and usable in OSM from the blanket Geoscience Australia wavier[5].

 

GA also has a Surface Hydrology dataset [2] [3] [4] which could be used as well.

 

Some features are better tagged as a wetland 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dwetland. Local knowledge is 
always prefered, but so long as features mapped from local knowledge are not 
impacted, something mapped from other sources is better than nothing, which can 
be improved further by local knowledge.

 

I'm interested to know more about the alignment issues when they meet the 
coast, is there a specific example of where this needs work at the moment in 
OSM?

 

PS. Microsoft's Open Maps team has similar tasks at 
https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/14 and 
https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/11

 

[1] 
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/blob/gh-pages/sources/australia/au/AGRIblack-and-white25m.geojson?short_path=4ca9ae8

[2] 
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/1186e898-14b5-812e-e053-10a3070a76f0

[3] 
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/12777e32-ec4f-055a-e053-10a3070a2ce2

[4] 
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/123f4803-04d7-32d1-e053-12a3070a99ac

[5] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:GeoscienceAustralia_CCBY_Waiver_EmailAcceptance.pdf

 

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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Wiseman]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions everyone, that’s very helpful. We have 
also added AGRI to our list of sources.

Where the inland water meets the coastlines, we have seen a few different 
styles of modeling so I wanted to see if you had a local policy about it. 

In some cases we’ve seen things like this, where the coastline goes very far 
upstream: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/14763476#map=11/-12.4279/132.4683 
 

In other cases, the coastline is farther downstream, like where the Pine River 
stops here: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/159813122#map=14/-27.2842/153.0761 


We were thinking the second example is better. If that’s the case for the 
Alligator River we would put the coastline here (which is also where the GA 
Surface Hydrology polygon has the river starting) 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-12.2296501875=132.402678198#map=15/-12.2293/132.4083
 

 and change the existing coastline to riverbank.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Andrew

Andrew Wiseman |  Maps | andrew_wise...@apple.com 


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addressee only and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you 
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is strictly prohibited.




> On May 16, 2018, at 9:26 AM, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> Agreed with Warin and Ewen.
> 
> I'd like to point out the AGRI imagery [1], yes it's old (2006-2011), black 
> and white, and missing parts of the imagery due to cloud and seams, but it 
> may help as an extra source to compare. It's good enough to make out rivers 
> and it should be accurate positionally since it was validated with ground 
> surveys. CC BY 4.0 and usable in OSM from the blanket Geoscience Australia 
> wavier[5].
> 
> GA also has a Surface Hydrology dataset [2] [3] [4] which could be used as 
> well.
> 
> Some features are better tagged as a wetland 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dwetland 
> . Local knowledge 
> is always prefered, but so long as features mapped from local knowledge are 
> not impacted, something mapped from other sources is better than nothing, 
> which can be improved further by local knowledge.
> 
> I'm interested to know more about the alignment issues when they meet the 
> coast, is there a specific example of where this needs work at the moment in 
> OSM?
> 
> PS. Microsoft's Open Maps team has similar tasks at 
> https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/14 
>  and 
> https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/11 
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/blob/gh-pages/sources/australia/au/AGRIblack-and-white25m.geojson?short_path=4ca9ae8
>  
> 
> [2] 
> https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/1186e898-14b5-812e-e053-10a3070a76f0
>  
> 
> [3] 
> https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/12777e32-ec4f-055a-e053-10a3070a2ce2
>  
> 
> [4] 
> https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/123f4803-04d7-32d1-e053-12a3070a99ac
>  
> 
> [5] 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:GeoscienceAustralia_CCBY_Waiver_EmailAcceptance.pdf
>  
> 
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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Harvey]

Agreed with Warin and Ewen.

I'd like to point out the AGRI imagery [1], yes it's old (2006-2011), black
and white, and missing parts of the imagery due to cloud and seams, but it
may help as an extra source to compare. It's good enough to make out rivers
and it should be accurate positionally since it was validated with ground
surveys. CC BY 4.0 and usable in OSM from the blanket Geoscience Australia
wavier[5].

GA also has a Surface Hydrology dataset [2] [3] [4] which could be used as
well.

Some features are better tagged as a wetland
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dwetland. Local knowledge
is always prefered, but so long as features mapped from local knowledge are
not impacted, something mapped from other sources is better than nothing,
which can be improved further by local knowledge.

I'm interested to know more about the alignment issues when they meet the
coast, is there a specific example of where this needs work at the moment
in OSM?

PS. Microsoft's Open Maps team has similar tasks at
https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/14 and
https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/11

[1]
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/blob/gh-pages/sources/australia/au/AGRIblack-and-white25m.geojson?short_path=4ca9ae8
[2]
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/1186e898-14b5-812e-e053-10a3070a76f0
[3]
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/12777e32-ec4f-055a-e053-10a3070a2ce2
[4]
https://ecat.ga.gov.au/geonetwork/srv/eng/catalog.search?node=srv#/metadata/123f4803-04d7-32d1-e053-12a3070a99ac
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:GeoscienceAustralia_CCBY_Waiver_EmailAcceptance.pdf
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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Ewen Hill]

Andrew,
   Welcome. As Warin mentioned, the vast majority of waterways are
intermittent outside the great dividing range and coastal areas and a map,
source and accuracy unknow is available as an example


https://amp.reddit.com/r/AussieMaps/comments/7sr4nz/where_the_water_flows_permanently_in_australia/?__twitter_impression=true

It would be interesting to see some small test areas and how you declare a
stream. Does it only run with extreme downpours or is it a collector. 

There are also a number of areas I think in SA that have been innindated by
streams from a data source and these could possibly be trimmed back. Flood
water on flat deserts will make its own mind up next time. I would be really
keen to hear more and thank you for your time in improvung the map.

Ewen




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Re: [talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Warin]

On 16/05/18 03:05, Andrew Wiseman wrote:

Hello,

My name is Andrew, I work for Apple’s Maps team. We are interested in 
doing some fixes and improvements to inland water features in 
Australia on OSM, such as adding and improving geometry of polygons 
for lakes and wide rivers, fixing broken relations, and correcting 
alignment issues for inland features when they meet the coast.


We have a GitHub page here with more information about the project: 
https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues/85


Please let me know if you have any suggestions or questions.


Many inland waters in Australia are 'intermittent' meaning they only 
flow when there is rain and that rain may only occur every 5 years or so 
on average.


Some waterways are seasonal ... mostly in the north for the wet season 
around Xmas time.


The LPI Base Map for the state of NSW is a fairly good source for 
geometry of waterways and it is usable within OSM.


--
I have changed some of the inland waterways to intermittent but there 
are others that I have left, these I lack knowledge of to tag them 
intermittent.
The base map now differentiates the intermittent waters so they do show 
up and are therefore easy to identify and correct any tagging.


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[talk-au] Correcting inland water features

[Andrew Wiseman]

Hello,

My name is Andrew, I work for Apple’s Maps team. We are interested in doing 
some fixes and improvements to inland water features in Australia on OSM, such 
as adding and improving geometry of polygons for lakes and wide rivers, fixing 
broken relations, and correcting alignment issues for inland features when they 
meet the coast. 

We have a GitHub page here with more information about the project: 
https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues/85 

Please let me know if you have any suggestions or questions.

Thank you,

Andrew

Apple, Inc.

Andrew Wiseman |  Maps | andrew_wise...@apple.com 


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