Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
ICMS principles state: "In Australia, whichever of the two names of the same feature that is most likely to be used by the local community is to be used first in a sequence [Refer Appendix A, § 4.5]. The sequence of the name should be reviewed at regular intervals. If a visual separator is required, it shall be a solidus preceded and followed by a space ‘. / . ‘." Which is why in NSW most dual names are *currently* rendered "European name / Aboriginal name". The latest vector tiles from DCS Spatial Service have these names rendered on them: https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/webmap/viewer.html?useExisting=1&layers=de92791f686843e1b2e32e908f241b9c (See Fort Denison or Shark Island for examples). All this seems to support the following approach in OSM (basically what Phil said) name:Bradleys Head / Booraghee name:en=Bradleys Head name:aus=Booraghee (replace 'aus' if definitively known) cheers Tom Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com On 6/06/2023 5:01 pm, Little Maps wrote: On 6 Jun 2023, at 2:29 pm, Ian Sergeant wrote: I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly. That's not the way that the GNB record them. Unless someone can find some information on the ground that records it that way? Ian, I stand corrected. NSW National Parks use a dash, not a slash, in the example I gave from The Rock Nature Reserve - Kengal Aboriginal Place. Sorry for the confusion. Having said that, Australian geographic names boards do use slashes for dual names. This extract is from the Vic Gov guidelines… “If a visual separator is required for clarity, it should be a solidus ( / ) preceded and followed by a space…. The following examples would be acceptable: Nambruc / Aberfeldy State Forest Colquhoun State Forest / Boyanga Gidi.” “Dual names once registered are to be used in full, shortened versions are not to be used.” (Hence dual names are not seen as alternatives.) From “Naming rules for places in Victoria 2022 - Statutory requirements for naming roads, features and localities” https://www.land.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/501093/Official-Naming-rules-for-places-in-Victoria-2022.docx The Vic Gov report refers to the National “Principles for the Consistent Use of Place Names. Includes Principles for the Use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Place Names and Dual Naming Depiction Principles” which also recommends that a “solidus” (i.e. a slash) is the recommended standard. https://www.icsm.gov.au/sites/default/files/consistent_place_names_principles.pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
On 6/6/23 17:06, Phil Wyatt wrote: Does anyone know of examples overseas with dual naming? Wales will be full of it. :) Example Way: Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych National Nature Reserve (374428119) name= Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych National Nature Reserve name:cy=Gwarchodfa Natur Genedlaethol Craig Cerrig Gleisiad a Fan Frynych Yes... after you. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
Naming for Ayres Rock/Uluru was discussed in talk-au on October 2019... We need to put this on the Australian tagging guidelines once some consensus is determined. Presently --- alt_name:en=Ayers Rock alt_name=Ayers Rock name:en=Uluṟu name=Uluṟu official_name:en=Uluru / Ayers Rock official_name=Uluru / Ayers Rock - I don't think Uluru is 'english'. And I'd not use old_name for 'Ayres Rock' as I'd think 'Uluru' would be older. Note: One of the past names was 'Uluru (Ayers Rock)'. On 6/6/23 14:26, Ian Sergeant wrote: I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly. That's not the way that the GNB record them. Unless someone can find some information on the ground that records it that way? 'Uluru / Ayers Rock' used to be the signage there, I have no idea if 'Ayres Rock' has been removed. . I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual named, but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" name. Alternative means just that, it's an equally valid, but alternative name. It's looks like exactly the type of scenario envisioned by the tag. IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag separated by a slash. I am for name:en=Ayres Rock name:aus=Uluru If the language code is known then use that .. possibly use both for redundancy ??? The name= tag should be what is 'on the ground' if there is a slash then there should be a slash. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
On 6 Jun 2023, at 2:29 pm, Ian Sergeant wrote: > > I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly. That's > not the way that the GNB record them. Unless someone can find some > information on the ground that records it that way? Ian, I stand corrected. NSW National Parks use a dash, not a slash, in the example I gave from The Rock Nature Reserve - Kengal Aboriginal Place. Sorry for the confusion. Having said that, Australian geographic names boards do use slashes for dual names. This extract is from the Vic Gov guidelines… “If a visual separator is required for clarity, it should be a solidus ( / ) preceded and followed by a space…. The following examples would be acceptable: Nambruc / Aberfeldy State Forest Colquhoun State Forest / Boyanga Gidi.” “Dual names once registered are to be used in full, shortened versions are not to be used.” (Hence dual names are not seen as alternatives.) From “Naming rules for places in Victoria 2022 - Statutory requirements for naming roads, features and localities” https://www.land.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0018/501093/Official-Naming-rules-for-places-in-Victoria-2022.docx The Vic Gov report refers to the National “Principles for the Consistent Use of Place Names. Includes Principles for the Use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Place Names and Dual Naming Depiction Principles” which also recommends that a “solidus” (i.e. a slash) is the recommended standard. https://www.icsm.gov.au/sites/default/files/consistent_place_names_principles.pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
Hi Ian, I cant actually find a FULL policy in NSW https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/policy-and-legislation/aboriginal-land-use-planning/nsw-dual-naming-policy https://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/aboriginal_place_naming/dual_naming However sixmaps does find indigenous names and seems to use the reverse of Tasmania with the English name first then the slash then the indigenous name (search for wahluu) Interestingly, in Tasmania the Aboriginal and dual naming layer in LIST has the indigenous name in the ‘name’ field and a separate ‘Dualname’ field for the extended naming. However the actual mapping shows only the dualname which abides by the actual policy. Not all indigenous named features are dual named. https://maps.thelist.tas.gov.au/listmap/app/list/map?bookmarkId=884426 and click on the orange polygons Maybe over time the dual naming will be replaced with indigenous names only, but only time will tell. In the meantime, in Tassie, I will stick with the options below to give data users the most options. name=kunanyi / Mount Wellington name:en=Mount Wellington name:xtz=kunanyi Does anyone know of examples overseas with dual naming? Cheers - Phil From: Ian Sergeant Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 2:26 PM To: Ben Ritter Cc: OSM Australian Talk List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly. That's not the way that the GNB record them. Unless someone can find some information on the ground that records it that way? I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual named, but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" name. Alternative means just that, it's an equally valid, but alternative name. It's looks like exactly the type of scenario envisioned by the tag. IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag separated by a slash. Ian. On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 12:45, Ben Ritter mailto:benjaminarit...@gmail.com> > wrote: I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be documented as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data perspective, I think it is also useful to know that the english called it (in english spelling) `name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in local romanised spelling) `name:aus=Booraghee`. I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see it as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of our cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand, when I hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much better time pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even better after someone in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus` form with the actual language(s). On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps mailto:mapslit...@gmail.com> > wrote: This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
I think including a "slash" character in a name tag is really ugly. That's not the way that the GNB record them. Unless someone can find some information on the ground that records it that way? I understand the desire to not diminish either name when they are dual named, but I think it's wrong to think of alt_name as a "lesser" name. Alternative means just that, it's an equally valid, but alternative name. It's looks like exactly the type of scenario envisioned by the tag. IMO it's a bad outcome to end up with multiple names in one tag separated by a slash. Ian. On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 12:45, Ben Ritter wrote: > I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be > documented as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data > perspective, I think it is also useful to know that the english called it > (in english spelling) `name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in > local romanised spelling) `name:aus=Booraghee`. > > I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see > it as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of > our cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand, > when I hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much > better time pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even > better after someone in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus` > form with the actual language(s). > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps wrote: > >> This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s >> interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and >> reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. >> Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John >> Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock >> Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is >> the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on >> all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the >> entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we >> are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag. >> ___ >> Talk-au mailing list >> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au >> > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be documented as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data perspective, I think it is also useful to know that the english called it (in english spelling) `name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in local romanised spelling) `name:aus=Booraghee`. I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see it as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of our cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand, when I hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much better time pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even better after someone in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus` form with the actual language(s). On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps wrote: > This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s > interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and > reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. > Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John > Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock > Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is > the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on > all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the > entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we > are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag. > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names. Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag.___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 08:11, Tom Brennan wrote: > There are an increasing number of places/features in NSW that are > getting dual (aboriginal) naming. > > For example: > - Booraghee / Bradleys Head > - Cooyoyo / The Castle > - Fort Denison / Muddawahnyuh > > From the point of view of the Geographic Names Board, there doesn't > appear to be any primacy given to one name or the other. > > Is there a view as to how to record these in OSM? > At a minimum they should have: name:en=Bradleys Head (name in English) name:aus=Booraghee (name in Australian Aboriginal Language (non-specific) This allows data consumers to choose what they display to users and how. > The specific aboriginal language is not necessarily known. > You can/should use the Australian Aboriginal Language (non-specific) language code "aus", ie. name:aus=* https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:aus > There are obviously tags like 'alt_name' that can be used to store a > second name, but not sure if that's most appropriate in cases like this. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
Hi Folks, In Tasmania I have started to use the following for dual named locations name=kunanyi / Mount Wellington name:en=Mount Wellington name:xtz=kunanyi where xtz is the language code for the indigenous language of the area https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Australia% 27s_First_Peoples#Indigenous_Languages_and_Place_Names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_languages Most states are also likely have some policy on implementation. https://nre.tas.gov.au/Documents/Aboriginal-and-Dual-Naming-Policy-2-Jul20.p df 5.9 Both parts of a dual name are to be shown on all official signage, directories, maps and all official documents and publications without any distinction between the two, other than the sequence. The Aboriginal name will appear first, separated by a solidus to be preceded, and followed by spaces. 5.10 Official signage, maps and other information products will be updated incrementally as maintenance budgets for signage allow, or as new editions of maps and visitor information publications are released. Hope this helps Cheers - Phil -Original Message- From: Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2023 8:06 AM To: OSM Australian Talk List Subject: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW There are an increasing number of places/features in NSW that are getting dual (aboriginal) naming. For example: - Booraghee / Bradleys Head - Cooyoyo / The Castle - Fort Denison / Muddawahnyuh From the point of view of the Geographic Names Board, there doesn't appear to be any primacy given to one name or the other. Is there a view as to how to record these in OSM? The specific aboriginal language is not necessarily known. There are obviously tags like 'alt_name' that can be used to store a second name, but not sure if that's most appropriate in cases like this. cheers Tom Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
I'm struggling to word this reply without being labelled racist or discriminatory, but I believe the English names should remain and the "alt_name" field be used for local names. Anything else will render OSM data unusable to the majority of people in this country. Ian On 6/6/23 8:06 am, Tom Brennan wrote: > There are an increasing number of places/features in NSW that are getting > dual (aboriginal) naming. > > For example: > - Booraghee / Bradleys Head > - Cooyoyo / The Castle > - Fort Denison / Muddawahnyuh > > From the point of view of the Geographic Names Board, there doesn't appear to > be any primacy given > to one name or the other. > > Is there a view as to how to record these in OSM? > > The specific aboriginal language is not necessarily known. > > There are obviously tags like 'alt_name' that can be used to store a second > name, but not sure if > that's most appropriate in cases like this. > > cheers > Tom > > Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning > Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Dual naming in NSW
There are an increasing number of places/features in NSW that are getting dual (aboriginal) naming. For example: - Booraghee / Bradleys Head - Cooyoyo / The Castle - Fort Denison / Muddawahnyuh From the point of view of the Geographic Names Board, there doesn't appear to be any primacy given to one name or the other. Is there a view as to how to record these in OSM? The specific aboriginal language is not necessarily known. There are obviously tags like 'alt_name' that can be used to store a second name, but not sure if that's most appropriate in cases like this. cheers Tom Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
