Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Great work again Andrew, many, many thanks. I’m curious what process we could use to move forward on this. As I understand your message, we have and/or can get population data for a small proportion of places in Aus (probably with comprehensive data for most larger places and less data for the many smaller ones). This means that, if we develop a guideline based primarily on population data we then have to develop a simple way to extrapolate the guidelines to places without pop data. Yes? As a simple starting point, I’m curious whether it’s possible to first try to get agreement on general cut-offs for villages/towns/cities etc using only the places that have pop data (i.e. those you’ve mapped). We could present some different scenarios so that everyone could see the implications of different decisions for areas that they know. If agreement can be reached on this, we could then try to develop a simple way to generate guidelines for places without population data. This might use township area as a proxy for population for example (or other features). The overpass patterns you generated are great to see. I imagined that the OSM city/town division might have been based on features like whether a place had a hospital etc, as others have suggested. But your analysis suggests that we may just have major regional differences in what people consider to be towns vs cities. For example, lots of regional centres in Vic have been tagged as cities (and are indeed called ‘cities’ in Victoria), whereas many places of similar size in other states have been tagged as towns. That points to broad social/cultural differences between Victoria and other regions, rather than fine detailed factors at individual localities. It’s great to see this big picture view. I’m happy to devote some time to the topic too if others think it’s a useful topic to progress. Thanks again, Ian ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
On 2/10/23 12:52, Little Maps wrote: Hi again, fyi. I was curious to see how variable city/town tags were in relation to population. About 1500 places spread around Aus have a population tag according to an Overpass Turbo search. You were a little too quick for me, I didn't have time to put them all in. I've done all of the village/town/cities that I could line up with the appropriate ABS UCL (or for some the appropriate mesh blocks). I have not included places that are inside another place or places that the ABS give a hyphenated name where it's not obvious which place node to put the population on. You can view them on a map: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bhl cities https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bhm towns https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bhp villages Looks like Victoria is the home of city-flation. Using Ockham’s razor, the simplest (best?) approach would be to start super simple and then see what we’re missing. For example, map all locations using population (or proxy) and then overlay presence / absence of hospitals, schools, etc and see where and how often anomalies occur, and then discuss how to deal with these. There may not be many. Otherwise we end up debating local issues only, like the merits of the Windorah coffee shop, which doesn’t get us far imo. Whatever people come up with it's got to be: 1. Simple to apply 2. Verifiable ie: other mappers need to be able to come to the same conclusion 3. Consistent with the principle of least surprise ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Thanks for that, Ian! & yes On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:56, Little Maps wrote: > It'd be great to develop some clear guidelines to guide future changes. > It would be! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Hi again, fyi. I was curious to see how variable city/town tags were in relation to population. About 1500 places spread around Aus have a population tag according to an Overpass Turbo search. This number includes place= village, hamlet, town and city. I didn't include place=locality or other place tags. The table below shows how many places were tagged as town, city, etc for each population group. *Population* *hamlet* *village* *town* *city* *Total count* 0-199 138 106 83 0 327 200-999 42 251 270 0 563 1000-4999 2 84 280 0 366 5000-4 0 6 140 54 200 5+ 0 0 7 31 38 *Count* *182* *447* *780* *85* 1494 Thus, 327 places with a population tag had less than 200 people. Of these 327 places,138 were tagged as hamlet, 106 as village, 83 as town, etc. At the other extreme, of 38 places with more than 50,000 people, 7 were tagged as towns, while the rest were tagged as cities. It'd be interesting to analyse these patterns further to see if there are systematic spatial trends (e.g. places along the east coast may have different tags to places further inland). But, at a national level, town/village/hamlet allocation is amazingly variable. It'd be great to develop some clear guidelines to guide future changes. Cheers Ian On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 10:12 AM Little Maps wrote: > Hi all, I’m late to this but, my two bobs worth… I’d prefer it if a > simple, flat rule was used to define towns/villages etc, preferably based > on population alone, but using proxies such as area or number of houses > where pop data aren’t available. A few reasons… > > Vector based maps (such as Osmand uses) enable users to change what > features appear at different zoom levels. Not my specialty, but my > impression is vector based maps are more likely to inc in future c.f. tile > based maps (which OSM carto uses). These alleviate the ‘empty map’ problem > as users can adjust different zoom settings to work in cities or rural > areas as they please. > > Simple definitions are more practical. Complicated definitions will end up > getting more complicated as different users add their own spin (e.g. 2 > closed pubs + 1 footy oval - a doctors office = a town). > > The discussion is focused on map rendering but OSM is a database which (in > theory) could be used for lots of purposes. This gets harder to do if > places (such as towns vs hamlets etc) have definitions that incorporate > lots of other features (such as presence of pubs, ovals, hospitals). > > Using Ockham’s razor, the simplest (best?) approach would be to start > super simple and then see what we’re missing. For example, map all > locations using population (or proxy) and then overlay presence / absence > of hospitals, schools, etc and see where and how often anomalies occur, and > then discuss how to deal with these. There may not be many. Otherwise we > end up debating local issues only, like the merits of the Windorah coffee > shop, which doesn’t get us far imo. > > More broadly, I’m not convinced that many users care whether a locality is > called a hamlet/village/town/city. Who calls a place a ‘hamlet’ in > Australia apart from mappers? We want to show whether one place is markedly > bigger than the next, and more importantly, whether it’s got petrol, a > grocery store, pub and hospital, etc. > > Hence, I’d keep the town vs hamlet definitions as simple as possible, and > focus on mapping features like residential landuse (which describe how big > the place is) and POIs. Let’s avoid ‘town-flation’ and let ongoing > developments in map rendering (inc vector maps?) fix empty map problems. > > Great conversation, thanks to all. Cheers Ian > > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Hi all, I’m late to this but, my two bobs worth… I’d prefer it if a simple, flat rule was used to define towns/villages etc, preferably based on population alone, but using proxies such as area or number of houses where pop data aren’t available. A few reasons… Vector based maps (such as Osmand uses) enable users to change what features appear at different zoom levels. Not my specialty, but my impression is vector based maps are more likely to inc in future c.f. tile based maps (which OSM carto uses). These alleviate the ‘empty map’ problem as users can adjust different zoom settings to work in cities or rural areas as they please. Simple definitions are more practical. Complicated definitions will end up getting more complicated as different users add their own spin (e.g. 2 closed pubs + 1 footy oval - a doctors office = a town). The discussion is focused on map rendering but OSM is a database which (in theory) could be used for lots of purposes. This gets harder to do if places (such as towns vs hamlets etc) have definitions that incorporate lots of other features (such as presence of pubs, ovals, hospitals). Using Ockham’s razor, the simplest (best?) approach would be to start super simple and then see what we’re missing. For example, map all locations using population (or proxy) and then overlay presence / absence of hospitals, schools, etc and see where and how often anomalies occur, and then discuss how to deal with these. There may not be many. Otherwise we end up debating local issues only, like the merits of the Windorah coffee shop, which doesn’t get us far imo. More broadly, I’m not convinced that many users care whether a locality is called a hamlet/village/town/city. Who calls a place a ‘hamlet’ in Australia apart from mappers? We want to show whether one place is markedly bigger than the next, and more importantly, whether it’s got petrol, a grocery store, pub and hospital, etc. Hence, I’d keep the town vs hamlet definitions as simple as possible, and focus on mapping features like residential landuse (which describe how big the place is) and POIs. Let’s avoid ‘town-flation’ and let ongoing developments in map rendering (inc vector maps?) fix empty map problems. Great conversation, thanks to all. Cheers Ian ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
A lady served me a burger and coffee at Windorah Roadhouse. I think I remember the supermarket also had some limited fast food. I had a sit down feed at the pub in a prior visit. Was eaten alive by mozzies at Stonehenge (Qld) pub. The visitors centre there (also a RTC and small supermarket) did coffee and cake. Last visit there was a fly-in RFDS clinic in progress. Their plane was parked at the airstrip. Stayed at the Stonehenge farm (stay) in Vic near Bruthen. There is an odd sight of 2 vans and a station wagon stacked on an inverted "U" frame there. I use Healthdirect for occasional hospital/chemist lookups. Activity on FB walls is a far more accurate measure of other major use current services. There is a lot of old data out there and dated references are sorely needed. I have tagged a few RFDS clinic sites. I tend to do mass data filterings in my head rather than rely on a summary spiel. I seriously think that presenting summary info as an OSM object is not a good idea and should be left to the data consumer to calculate for a given area. A population qty tag would be one of inputs. The concept of (size/services) hamlets, towns etc might even be dropped? IMO of course! On 1/10/23 21:16, Warin wrote: Most useful to most, most of the time? Pubs? Source of refreshments and information. Maybe there should be a tag for pub population? Windorah has one. Is the blind fellow still serving in the petrol station? Only one Pub in Stonehenge .. Queensland. The one in Tassie is a farm .. no pubs etc. Today medical services are scares. Might even have to list the regular RFDS visits as being useful to some. Easier to find wielders .. the bigger outback stations have them, oil/gas fields have mobile ones. I did have to look up Birdun Northern Territory, most of the others I've either been to or been past at some time. Somewhere I have a tee shirt from Rabbit Flat (no longer there) and Giles (no longer allowed to sell them)... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
On 1/10/23 18:25, Bob Cameron wrote: To be honest Graeme I look at key services specific to my need. Kind of like a weighted value that only applies to me. The use of a macro label hamlet, village, town are kind of too open ended. Population does roughly track with services so I tend to use that as rough start, but never a decision. I would actually rate the local mobile phone signal/bandwidth as the most important service. The problem is how to define what is most useful for the end data consumer that doesn't want to line up the details for comparison. How does one define "most useful" that suits most? (This having been mentioned in prior posts) Bob Most useful to most, most of the time? Pubs? Source of refreshments and information. Maybe there should be a tag for pub population? Windorah has one. Is the blind fellow still serving in the petrol station? Only one Pub in Stonehenge .. Queensland. The one in Tassie is a farm .. no pubs etc. Today medical services are scares. Might even have to list the regular RFDS visits as being useful to some. Easier to find wielders .. the bigger outback stations have them, oil/gas fields have mobile ones. I did have to look up Birdun Northern Territory, most of the others I've either been to or been past at some time. Somewhere I have a tee shirt from Rabbit Flat (no longer there) and Giles (no longer allowed to sell them)... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
To be honest Graeme I look at key services specific to my need. Kind of like a weighted value that only applies to me. The use of a macro label hamlet, village, town are kind of too open ended. Population does roughly track with services so I tend to use that as rough start, but never a decision. I would actually rate the local mobile phone signal/bandwidth as the most important service. The problem is how to define what is most useful for the end data consumer that doesn't want to line up the details for comparison. How does one define "most useful" that suits most? (This having been mentioned in prior posts) Bob On 1/10/23 17:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Good to hear from you, Bob. As somebody who spends a lot of time out in remote places, what's your thoughts on the concept? Thanks Graeme On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 at 15:45, Bob Cameron wrote: I managed (to buy) a coffee in Windorah two years ago.. That has to count for something.. They have spent a lot on the campsite too. Newish amenities and hot showers for $5/n in 5/21. Cheers Bob On 1/10/23 10:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Oh look - Windorah is there, so it must be important after all! :-) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Good to hear from you, Bob. As somebody who spends a lot of time out in remote places, what's your thoughts on the concept? Thanks Graeme On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 at 15:45, Bob Cameron wrote: > I managed (to buy) a coffee in Windorah two years ago.. That has to count > for something.. > > They have spent a lot on the campsite too. Newish amenities and hot > showers for $5/n in 5/21. > > Cheers Bob > On 1/10/23 10:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Oh look - Windorah is there, so it must be important after all! :-) > > Thanks > > Graeme > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
I managed (to buy) a coffee in Windorah two years ago.. That has to count for something.. They have spent a lot on the campsite too. Newish amenities and hot showers for $5/n in 5/21. Cheers Bob On 1/10/23 10:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Oh look - Windorah is there, so it must be important after all! :-) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
On 1/10/23 10:31, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Oh look - Windorah is there, so it must be important after all! :-) Almost as important as Croydon. No, not that Croydon, Croydon Queensland. Just up the road from the metropolis of Forsayth. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
Oh look - Windorah is there, so it must be important after all! :-) Thanks Graeme On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 at 09:26, Andrew Davidson wrote: > On 29/9/23 20:22, Warin wrote: > > > I did meet some English 4WD world travellers that had a world map. In > the > > north west corner of Australia was Carnegie on that map .. it is a > > cattle station, has fuel and might do some food if you ask. It is a fair > > way to the next places with fuel. It was on their map so they went. Such > > is the power of 'filling in the blank spaces'. > > It is interesting to look at world maps and looking at what gets put in > for Australia compared to elsewhere. Check out this 1957 Nat Geo maps > and see how many of the AU place names you even recognise: > > https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-548412715/view > > Trida? Not even in OSM. > > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size)
On 29/9/23 20:22, Warin wrote: I did meet some English 4WD world travellers that had a world map. In the north west corner of Australia was Carnegie on that map .. it is a cattle station, has fuel and might do some food if you ask. It is a fair way to the next places with fuel. It was on their map so they went. Such is the power of 'filling in the blank spaces'. It is interesting to look at world maps and looking at what gets put in for Australia compared to elsewhere. Check out this 1957 Nat Geo maps and see how many of the AU place names you even recognise: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-548412715/view Trida? Not even in OSM. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
