Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010, John Smith wrote: On 19 February 2010 10:10, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: The Director would however approve the release of the data provided the usual terms of our licence agreement were in place. They clearly just don't get it hey... Well they are aware of cc-by, so that's a good first start, now to get them to look at using cc-by for a license on the data is the next step... They are bureaucrats, and can't be seen to be falling out of line or making a new decision. I confess to some understanding of the processes and suggest a snail mail to the appropriate Minister, asking him / her to authorise the release under the cc-by licence. Include the copy of the [refusal] sorry, reply received already ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
Hi all, Just thought I'd update on this. 1. What sort of agreement do I need from Yarra Trams before this information can be uploaded into OSM? What have others done in the past? What can you do if they agree one day, then change their mind? Generally you should get some form, either by a published copyright that is compatible with the OSM license, or a specific statement allowing OSM to import the data under it's license, if the general copyright is not compatible. I had a chat to a guy at Yarra Trams, who was REALLY helpful. He was quite interested in what I was trying to do, and OSM in general. I explained to him the benefits of having this open data and he started to see the benefits of it once I told him that he'd probably come across OSM maps in things like iPhone apps, etc where you can't use Google's maps. It seemed that Metlink actually own this data, and I finally got a response from them today: -- As DOT is yet to consider Creative Commons licensing pending the Government's response to the Parliamentary Inquiry into Improving Access to Public Sector Information and Data, the Director of Public Transport does not approve of the release of the tram stop data requested under a Creative Commons licence for use in the OpenStreetMap product. The Director would however approve the release of the data provided the usual terms of our licence agreement were in place. -- Then, this was in the document they sent me: -- Dear Andy, USE OF TRAM STOP INFORMATION, (THE DATA) LICENCE AGREEMENT I refer to your recent request to use data. This data, and any intellectual property in it, is wholly and exclusively owned by the Director of Public Transport on behalf of the Crown in right of the State of Victoria (“the Director”). The Director grants you a royalty-free, non-exclusive licence (“Licence”) to use this data for the purpose of adding the information to www.OpenStreetMap.org/ . The Licence to use the data is granted solely to OpenStreetMap and is subject to the following conditions and obligations: 1. The data must not be used for any purpose other than that specified above. 2. The data must not be retained by OpenStreetMap after the requirement for it (as specified above) has been satisfied. 3. The data must not be altered or amended in any way whatsoever. 4. The data must not be sub-licensed, traded, sold, or otherwise made available to any other person or entity by OpenStreetMap. 5. The data must not be used in any manner that may, in the sole opinion of Metlink, be misleading, or which may denigrate, disparage or bring into disrepute Metlink, a public transport operator or the Victorian Government or public transport in Victoria. 6. Metlink has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the data is accurate and current. However, no warranty is given by Metlink or the Director that the data is free from errors or is complete or up-to-date. 7. OpenStreetMap assumes the sole risk of interpreting and applying the data, and indemnifies Metlink and the Director against all demands, claims, liability, loss, damage or injury of any kind whatsoever (including consequential loss and damage and any legal costs) that may be suffered by any person in connection with the use of the data or the existence of errors in [the data] including as a result of the way in which OpenStreetMap has interpreted, applied or used the data. 8. The Licence is revocable upon the termination or expiry of the Metlink Services Agreement between Metlink and the Director. -- Clearly this isn't going to work, but thought it might be of interest to you guys. cheers, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: The Director would however approve the release of the data provided the usual terms of our licence agreement were in place. They clearly just don't get it hey... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On 19 February 2010 10:10, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: The Director would however approve the release of the data provided the usual terms of our licence agreement were in place. They clearly just don't get it hey... Well they are aware of cc-by, so that's a good first start, now to get them to look at using cc-by for a license on the data is the next step... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
Hi David, Im worried about a technique like that. You plan to remove all existing stops (whether survey'd or nearmapped or whatever) to be replaced by a mass data set. Just ask around how well that worked for the BP import and how many nodes ended up doubled up, or in the wrong location? Before uploading them to OSM, I'd probably test them out on Google Maps first as a sanity check. If that seems ok, I'd probably start doing routes one by one, starting with the ones with little or no stop nodes. If youve been on-the-ground and surveyed the data for the tram stops and simply wished to bulk upload verified data, that would be one thing, but if you plan on removing possibly surveyed data, just for the sake of importing a government supplied GIS list, I think the consequences should be understood that you could be removing accurate data to replace it with less-accurate data, unless you plan on reviewing/surveying every node yourself? I would be reviewing all the myself. With these stops, it's not that hard. They're generally at intersections of the road, so they're easy to identify. cheers, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On 30 January 2010 19:36, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: Before uploading them to OSM, I'd probably test them out on Google Maps first as a sanity check. If you make an OSM file, you can open this in JOSM and check it against OSM data, and even Nearmap overlays etc... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Andy Botting wrote: I've noticed that the stops in OSM are a little inconsistent and incomplete, so I'd like to get them fixed. I was really impressed when I had to get the tram back to Preston. Couldn't remember how far it was on the way in, got out the freerunner, started navit, and found that i had a few stops to go, no need to panic. :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 22:06 +1100, Andy Botting wrote: I've dabbled with a few little tram projects over the last couple of years, so I'm interested in the state of the tram information for Melbourne. I've noticed that the stops in OSM are a little inconsistent and incomplete, so I'd like to get them fixed. ... 2. Is there a particular format/method for uploading this information? I guess I would need to manually remove the existing stops first before pushing the new data in. Im worried about a technique like that. You plan to remove all existing stops (whether survey'd or nearmapped or whatever) to be replaced by a mass data set. Just ask around how well that worked for the BP import and how many nodes ended up doubled up, or in the wrong location? If youve been on-the-ground and surveyed the data for the tram stops and simply wished to bulk upload verified data, that would be one thing, but if you plan on removing possibly surveyed data, just for the sake of importing a government supplied GIS list, I think the consequences should be understood that you could be removing accurate data to replace it with less-accurate data, unless you plan on reviewing/surveying every node yourself? David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On 30 January 2010 11:56, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: Im worried about a technique like that. You plan to remove all existing stops (whether survey'd or nearmapped or whatever) to be replaced by a mass data set. Just ask around how well that worked for the BP import and how many nodes ended up doubled up, or in the wrong location? The duplicates from the BP import was intended not an accident, I intentionally didn't remove any existing data so that the data could be merged with existing information. If youve been on-the-ground and surveyed the data for the tram stops and simply wished to bulk upload verified data, that would be one thing, but if you plan on removing possibly surveyed data, just for the sake of importing a government supplied GIS list, I think the consequences should be understood that you could be removing accurate data to replace it with less-accurate data, unless you plan on reviewing/surveying every node yourself? I agree, data should never be removed for the purposes of importing new data, there possibly a small amount of harm with duplicate data if people rely on it to be accurate, but in that case hopefully things will get worked out and merge the data. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
Hi there freedom lovers, I've dabbled with a few little tram projects over the last couple of years, so I'm interested in the state of the tram information for Melbourne. I've noticed that the stops in OSM are a little inconsistent and incomplete, so I'd like to get them fixed. Anyone on this list from Melbourne and catching trams, have probably heard of 'Tram Tracker'. It's a web-services based system for predicting the arrival of a tram at a particular stop. I've managed write some little python scripts to compile a little database of all the stops, with info like lat, lng, stop number, routes stopping at each stop, and a few other little bits. So, my questions here are: 1. What sort of agreement do I need from Yarra Trams before this information can be uploaded into OSM? What have others done in the past? What can you do if they agree one day, then change their mind? 2. Is there a particular format/method for uploading this information? I guess I would need to manually remove the existing stops first before pushing the new data in. cheers, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: Hi there freedom lovers, I've dabbled with a few little tram projects over the last couple of years, so I'm interested in the state of the tram information for Melbourne. I've noticed that the stops in OSM are a little inconsistent and incomplete, so I'd like to get them fixed. Anyone on this list from Melbourne and catching trams, have probably heard of 'Tram Tracker'. It's a web-services based system for predicting the arrival of a tram at a particular stop. I've managed write some little python scripts to compile a little database of all the stops, with info like lat, lng, stop number, routes stopping at each stop, and a few other little bits. So, my questions here are: 1. What sort of agreement do I need from Yarra Trams before this information can be uploaded into OSM? What have others done in the past? What can you do if they agree one day, then change their mind? Generally you should get some form, either by a published copyright that is compatible with the OSM license, or a specific statement allowing OSM to import the data under it's license, if the general copyright is not compatible. 2. Is there a particular format/method for uploading this information? I guess I would need to manually remove the existing stops first before pushing the new data in. For the couple imports I have done I have user perl (I would assume python equivalent exist) modules to convert from shp/gpx/whatever to the '.osm' xml format and then pushed it in with josm or an osm batch upload script. The long bits tend to be getting copyright agreement (which may be a 'not happening' scenario) and then working out what attributes to put on the data - which i have done iteratively on the list. (ps - Hi Andy - 'Intersect Franc') cheers cheers, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On 29 January 2010 08:29, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: When writing this email, I had the import of the Vic Police stations in mind. I think this might be similar to what was done in that case. The vic police stations were released under a cc-by license so we didn't need to contact anyone to import them. There has been a couple of data sets imported from http://data.australia.gov.au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
Hi John, The vic police stations were released under a cc-by license so we didn't need to contact anyone to import them. There has been a couple of data sets imported from http://data.australia.gov.au I was more referring to the technical problem (OSM xml format, importing data) rather than the political one or getting a license for the data. I think it's a fantastic initiative by the government to release it data. Kinda gives me the impression that they're starting to 'get it', and this information should be free. cheers, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tram stops and routes for Melbourne
On 29 January 2010 08:36, Andy Botting a...@andybotting.com wrote: I think it's a fantastic initiative by the government to release it data. Kinda gives me the impression that they're starting to 'get it', and this information should be free. I don't know if they are finally getting it, or just keeping up with the Jones'. Both the US and UK govrernments are in the process of releasing data, or already have, in the US this included at least 3 high value data sets and 300 or more data sets in total. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
