Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Jun 2019, 14:39 by frede...@remote.org:

>  while it is *possible* to actually inspect every "upgrade"
> iD is suggesting, it is equally possible to just hit the "upgrade"
> button without caring at all and you can't see from the outside how much
> diligence has been applied in committing a changeset.
>
For brand tagging it was improved in
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6443#issuecomment-500465246 

and I proposed further improvements in
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6517

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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 22:41, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> It is possible for someone without any knowledge of Australia to
> participate in your challenge, log in, click the "upgrade tags" button
> without ever seeing *what* tags are being upgraded (or understanding
> why), and uploading the change.
>
> This kind of edit would clearly fall under the rules for mechanical
> edits and would have to be discussed in the community beforehand (i.e.
> the Australian community would have to agree what mechanical changes
> they want to apply to which objects). If anyone were to complain to DWG
> about such an edit, DWG would likely have to revert all edits made as
> part of this challenge for failing to follow the mechanical editing
> guidelines; while it is *possible* to actually inspect every "upgrade"
> iD is suggesting, it is equally possible to just hit the "upgrade"
> button without caring at all and you can't see from the outside how much
> diligence has been applied in committing a changeset.
>

Indeed I've noticed that some of the "upgrades" iD suggests are wrong, and
other "upgrades" deleted correct data someone carefully surveyed. So I
agree we should be careful in any MapRoulette challange that the
instructions indicate you should only upgrade what you have local knowledge
of and be sure to review the changes, instead of doing it blind to the
actual changes being done.


> There have already been instances where, even outside of a MapRoulette
> challenge, innocent newbie editors who just clicked "upgrade" and
> thought they were doing good, have been grilled by the community later
> ("why exactly did you change this tag on this object to this value"),
> leading to a bad experience on all sides involved.


> Therefore, please exercise utmost care when setting up any MapRoulette
> challenges or anything that incites user to mass-"upgrade" tags. It is
> entirely possible that once the community has a closer look at it, the
> tags will have to be "downgraded" again because whatever iD thought to
> be a good idea, is not actually a good idea in Australia.
>
> Do not blindly assume that what the iD editor suggests as an "upgrade"
> is actually an improvement.
>
> We are not saying that what you are doing is wrong, but it is definitely
> dangerous and should only be done with utmost care.
>

100% agreed on all your points. Thanks for taking the time to share this
message.
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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

I'm a member of the OSMF Data Working Group and we have been alerted to
this thread. Please let me say a few words of caution to avoid problems
down the line:

The "upgrade tags" functionality in the ID editor is highly
controversial in the community. The rules about "upgrading" are not the
result of a solid community process and many are contested.

While an individual mapper has the freedom to choose any tags they want,
they must also take full responsibility for what they are doing; the
editor does not take the responsibility away from them.

It is possible for someone without any knowledge of Australia to
participate in your challenge, log in, click the "upgrade tags" button
without ever seeing *what* tags are being upgraded (or understanding
why), and uploading the change.

This kind of edit would clearly fall under the rules for mechanical
edits and would have to be discussed in the community beforehand (i.e.
the Australian community would have to agree what mechanical changes
they want to apply to which objects). If anyone were to complain to DWG
about such an edit, DWG would likely have to revert all edits made as
part of this challenge for failing to follow the mechanical editing
guidelines; while it is *possible* to actually inspect every "upgrade"
iD is suggesting, it is equally possible to just hit the "upgrade"
button without caring at all and you can't see from the outside how much
diligence has been applied in committing a changeset.

There have already been instances where, even outside of a MapRoulette
challenge, innocent newbie editors who just clicked "upgrade" and
thought they were doing good, have been grilled by the community later
("why exactly did you change this tag on this object to this value"),
leading to a bad experience on all sides involved.

Therefore, please exercise utmost care when setting up any MapRoulette
challenges or anything that incites user to mass-"upgrade" tags. It is
entirely possible that once the community has a closer look at it, the
tags will have to be "downgraded" again because whatever iD thought to
be a good idea, is not actually a good idea in Australia.

Do not blindly assume that what the iD editor suggests as an "upgrade"
is actually an improvement.

We are not saying that what you are doing is wrong, but it is definitely
dangerous and should only be done with utmost care.

Bye
Frederik Ramm
OSMF Data Working Group

DWG Ticket#201906061022 (user complaint about MapRoulette challenge
involving mass iD "upgrades")

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Daniel O'Connor]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 2:32 PM Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> PS – where it’s a building it wants to update each node of the building –
> not sure if this is a roulette issue or something else
>
>
>
That is annoying, I think its a maproullette issue - the queries look for
named nodes, named ways; when it generates tasks; it seems to be adding
the corner nodes too.

I might suggest people skip these; and there is
https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette3/issues/732 available to add shortcut
keys; though I can't find a more specific bug report around the test
generation. Might experiment and try to get good reproduce steps.
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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Daniel O'Connor]

>
>
> For example my personal preference is to tag the
>
> name: brand + branch
>
> eg. so Westfield Chatswood is tagged
>
> name=Westfield Chatswood
> brand=Westfield
> branch=Chatswood
> brand:wikidata= -> wikidata for Westfield brand
> wikidata= -> wikidata for Westfield Chatswood
>
> Same applies to bank branches, car shops etc.
>
>>
>>
Yeah, I agree on this one a bit.
Its odd; because some things you clearly would label like that, but they
often don't put up signage to that effect; but they'd refer to specific
locations like that on a "find a branch" or "find a store" type page.

It might be worth having a discussion around this ID behaviour if there's a
strong local use case? https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/6389 added
it I think.
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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6 Jun 2019, 07:02 by p...@wyatt-family.com:

>
> 3) Are there any big negatives to this people can think of?
>
>
People doing it
- instead of significantly more useful mapping (adding brand:wikidata is not so 
useful
to do it instead of mapping roads/shops/anything else)
- mindlessly, turning it into an automatic edit but wasting human time
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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Andrew Harvey]

I think doing this via MapRoulette challanges is a good way to go, and I
like that this can then be split up so only people with local knowledge are
editing as opposed to doing it without local knowledge.

I think care should be taken to not blindly "upgrade" all the tags, there
could be subtleties particularly around cuisine tags, or name tags that
should be carefully considered. Even then some stores with the same brand
might have a different shop tag for different outlets.

For example my personal preference is to tag the

name: brand + branch

eg. so Westfield Chatswood is tagged

name=Westfield Chatswood
brand=Westfield
branch=Chatswood
brand:wikidata= -> wikidata for Westfield brand
wikidata= -> wikidata for Westfield Chatswood

Same applies to bank branches, car shops etc.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 13:30, Daniel O'Connor 
wrote:

> Hey folks,
> Since ID now includes some handy presets and some recommendations to
> "upgrade tags", I thought I'd trial out a challenge to find all Woolworths
> supermarkets without wikidata.
>
> https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/8118
>
> 1) Is this kind of challenge and the resulting armchair mapping of
> interest?
> 2) If so, what Australian retail brand(s) would you include (banks,
> supermarkets, fast food, etc) in later challenges?
> 3) Are there any big negatives to this people can think of?
>
> The main motivation I have is for when mid to large sized chains go out of
> business, get bought or renamed - a single Brand key makes it a lot easier
> to find things for later survey/cleanup/etc.
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Phil Wyatt]

PS – where it’s a building it wants to update each node of the building – not 
sure if this is a roulette issue or something else

 

From: Daniel O'Connor [mailto:daniel.ocon...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 1:29 PM
To: OSM-Au
Subject: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands 
without Wikidata

 

Hey folks,
Since ID now includes some handy presets and some recommendations to "upgrade 
tags", I thought I'd trial out a challenge to find all Woolworths supermarkets 
without wikidata.

 

https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/8118  

1) Is this kind of challenge and the resulting armchair mapping of interest?
2) If so, what Australian retail brand(s) would you include (banks, 
supermarkets, fast food, etc) in later challenges?
3) Are there any big negatives to this people can think of?

The main motivation I have is for when mid to large sized chains go out of 
business, get bought or renamed - a single Brand key makes it a lot easier to 
find things for later survey/cleanup/etc.

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Re: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands without Wikidata

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Daniel,

 

Great idea however I think it might be better in smaller ‘state’ chunks. I 
would have no worries doing all those in Tasmania (as I travel around a lot and 
probably know most of them) but would be reluctant to do mainland locations 
without any personal knowledge.

 

Banks would be another good one given how they seem to be closing smaller 
branches around the place – again at a state level.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Daniel O'Connor [mailto:daniel.ocon...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 1:29 PM
To: OSM-Au
Subject: [talk-au] Maproullette challenge for feedback - Australian Brands 
without Wikidata

 

Hey folks,
Since ID now includes some handy presets and some recommendations to "upgrade 
tags", I thought I'd trial out a challenge to find all Woolworths supermarkets 
without wikidata.

 

https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/8118  

1) Is this kind of challenge and the resulting armchair mapping of interest?
2) If so, what Australian retail brand(s) would you include (banks, 
supermarkets, fast food, etc) in later challenges?
3) Are there any big negatives to this people can think of?

The main motivation I have is for when mid to large sized chains go out of 
business, get bought or renamed - a single Brand key makes it a lot easier to 
find things for later survey/cleanup/etc.

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