Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Andrew Harvey]

As far as I can tell train=yes is an access tag
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access saying trains are allowed,
which seems implied by railway=station. Do you have any other references
which explain what the train=yes tag is for and what it implies in this
case?

I agree wheelchair=yes on the station is quite broad, certainly the
detailed indoor footway mapping which exists at central goes much further
to document exactly what the wheelchair access is. At the high level I
think it's fair to assume that at the top level it just means that the
station and all its platforms is accessible via wheelchair, which I think
it is.

It can be useful for people consuming OSM data to at a glance see which
stations are wheelchair accessible and not.

Sydney Terminal, I believe, is only used for the country train services. In
this context it's still referring to the train station, and not the
platform but I think you could make an argument either way.

The boundary shouldn't be theoretical, per OSM the boundary should be from
the rail perspective where the entry/exit signals are, with the
public_transport tag mapping the station from the passengers perspective.
I'm not sure how anyone would know this without being an actual train
driver or with insider knowledge.

iD warnings might need fixing in this case, but I haven't looked at them in
detail so I'm not sure.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 11:02, Sebastian Spiess  wrote:

> Am 2019-03-26 11:54, schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 11:43, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the
> >> railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116
> >
> > I've expanded the landuse=railway area to include the main buildings.
> > I've also moved the railway=station to the whole landuse area, and
> > created a new public_transport way which is a bit smaller for Central,
> > per https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68528202.
> >
> > I understand this is a big change, so if there's any issues with doing
> > this let's work them out.
> >
> > I haven't migrated the relation members which used the old
> > railway=station build across yet.
>
> Thanks for your work on this.
>
> Question: any reason the https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023 was
> not tagged with train=yes as per the linked wiki page?
>
> Also, wheelchair=yes might be too broad and not specific enough to be
> actually helpful.
>
> I would think that the alt_name=Sydney Terminal should only be on actual
> platform or buildings. Boundaries such like way/34891023 (above) are
> rather theoretical. I see it as a likely scenario  that the alt_name
> might be used by data consumers to perform routing.
>
> It looks like some of the footpaths on the platforms need more work as
> iD is complaining about them crossing 'Station'.
>
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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Sebastian Spiess]

Am 2019-03-26 11:54, schrieb Andrew Harvey:

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 11:43, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the
railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116


I've expanded the landuse=railway area to include the main buildings.
I've also moved the railway=station to the whole landuse area, and
created a new public_transport way which is a bit smaller for Central,
per https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68528202.

I understand this is a big change, so if there's any issues with doing
this let's work them out.

I haven't migrated the relation members which used the old
railway=station build across yet.


Thanks for your work on this.

Question: any reason the https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023 was 
not tagged with train=yes as per the linked wiki page?


Also, wheelchair=yes might be too broad and not specific enough to be 
actually helpful.


I would think that the alt_name=Sydney Terminal should only be on actual 
platform or buildings. Boundaries such like way/34891023 (above) are 
rather theoretical. I see it as a likely scenario  that the alt_name 
might be used by data consumers to perform routing.


It looks like some of the footpaths on the platforms need more work as 
iD is complaining about them crossing 'Station'.


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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 11:43, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the
> railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116
>

I've expanded the landuse=railway area to include the main buildings. I've
also moved the railway=station to the whole landuse area, and created a new
public_transport way which is a bit smaller for Central, per
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68528202.

I understand this is a big change, so if there's any issues with doing this
let's work them out.

I haven't migrated the relation members which used the old railway=station
build across yet.
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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 11:43, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the
> railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116
>

That sounds good.


> And https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116 needs some corrections!
> The area is not a stop for a train. And it is only part of a
> public_transport=station
>

> Note: don't be too hard on the mappers who added these. OSM is developing
> over time and the OSM definitions of thing can and do change over time so
> past entries may have been correct at the time of entry. On the other hand
> .. we all make errors!
>

Absolutely.
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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Warin]

On 14/03/19 10:18, Andrew Harvey wrote:

You're right railway=station per the wiki

+1


Railway stations are mapped as an area covering the whole station
(tracks, buildings, platforms, etc.) or a node at the center of
the station from passengers' point of view. This is usually an
unconnected node at the platform area. This node does not have to
be part of a railway track.
If you want to map the station as an area, please consider that
different people describe the station area differently. While
passengers only have the area around the station building and the
platforms in mind, railway staff and railway enthusiasts think of
the whole railway area which begins at the entry signal at one
side and ends at the entry signals at the other side.


So https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ should be 
railway=station in my opinion, that would cover the whole area and 
encompass all the platforms, buildings, roofs, and tracks which are 
part of Central Station.


I agree the building roof's shouldn't have the name Central Station, 
it should come from the railway=station areas which encompasses them.


That would involve moving all the station tags off 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116 and onto the current 
landuse way.


If https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ is to be the 
railway=station then it needs to be expanded to include the are of 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116


And https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116 needs some corrections! 
The area is not a stop for a train. And it is only part of a 
public_transport=station


Note: don't be too hard on the mappers who added these. OSM is 
developing over time and the OSM definitions of thing can and do change 
over time so past entries may have been correct at the time of entry. On 
the other hand .. we all make errors!



On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 08:31, Thomas Manson > wrote:


Hi,

I am new to Open Street Maps, so I apologise if I miss something
obvious.

I am working with the developers of an app for vision impaired
users that helps then navigate unfamiliar locations, and we are
trying to help them navigate train stations in Australia, and I am
specifically looking at Central Statin in Sydney.

From my reading of the Tag:railway=station notes here
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation), it
appears that a station area should include the whole area of the
station. At Central station, this is not the case, and the
platform rooves have been added as standalone features, with no
association with the Central Station. This has resulted in the app
calling these out as additional features in the area, which
confuses our users, as they are not separate features.

I initially tagged each roof with the Name of Central station, but
it was pointed out to me that this is probably incorrect, and I am
happy to remove those names. However, I would like to propose
changing the shape of the feature with tag:railway=station to
include the area that has the platform rooves too. The features
that are the rooves would still be there as individual features.

Can anyone tell me if this is a good idea, or something I
shouldn’t do?



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Re: [talk-au] Station areas for railway=station

[Andrew Harvey]

You're right railway=station per the wiki

Railway stations are mapped as an area covering the whole station (tracks,
> buildings, platforms, etc.) or a node at the center of the station from
> passengers' point of view. This is usually an unconnected node at the
> platform area. This node does not have to be part of a railway track.
> If you want to map the station as an area, please consider that different
> people describe the station area differently. While passengers only have
> the area around the station building and the platforms in mind, railway
> staff and railway enthusiasts think of the whole railway area which begins
> at the entry signal at one side and ends at the entry signals at the other
> side.


So https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34891023/ should be railway=station in
my opinion, that would cover the whole area and encompass all the
platforms, buildings, roofs, and tracks which are part of Central Station.

I agree the building roof's shouldn't have the name Central Station, it
should come from the railway=station areas which encompasses them.

That would involve moving all the station tags off
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16748116 and onto the current landuse way.


On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 08:31, Thomas Manson 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> I am new to Open Street Maps, so I apologise if I miss something obvious.
>
>
>
> I am working with the developers of an app for vision impaired users that
> helps then navigate unfamiliar locations, and we are trying to help them
> navigate train stations in Australia, and I am specifically looking at
> Central Statin in Sydney.
>
>
>
> From my reading of the Tag:railway=station notes here (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation), it appears
> that a station area should include the whole area of the station. At
> Central station, this is not the case, and the platform rooves have been
> added as standalone features, with no association with the Central Station.
> This has resulted in the app calling these out as additional features in
> the area, which confuses our users, as they are not separate features.
>
>
>
> I initially tagged each roof with the Name of Central station, but it was
> pointed out to me that this is probably incorrect, and I am happy to remove
> those names. However, I would like to propose changing the shape of the
> feature with tag:railway=station to include the area that has the platform
> rooves too. The features that are the rooves would still be there as
> individual features.
>
>
>
> Can anyone tell me if this is a good idea, or something I shouldn’t do?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Thomas Manson
>
>
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