Re: [OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[Marc Gemis]

Here's Michael's answer: I haven't read it thoroughly yet, so I leave
the interpretation to each of you.

-
Your impression and the two answers make sence to me. It's hard to
decide the road classification by aerial view. A look beside to google
streetview also doesn't help (and I never would map what I found
there).

May I clear some about that overpass-query?
It only searches for residential, unclassified and tertiary. Higher
road classes are good visible in standard mapstile and lower doesn't
interrest in this case. The colours are blue for residential, orange
for unclassified and green for tertiary. If you zoom in all the
circles get to lines marking the kind of highway. You can move the
bbox on the map and start the query again for any area you want. Don't
use to big areas avoiding brakedown of query.

Okay, most roads have mainly resident buildings beside, but that's not
the only thing to decide about the category. The function in traffic
use is the leading choice for highway value. If a road with lots of
residential buildings beside is connecting towns, villages or parts of
them and is mainly used that way, mapping as a residential makes no
sence, because good routers (and drivers) should try to avoid them if
they don't are at the start or target of route. I often had this
residential mapping at countryside and got strange routes for my
"fast" scooter profile without using motorway and motorroad. That was
the reason I had a look to it. But the problem exists also for cars as
the thread in Mapfactor's forum shows.

And reading the post of Julien, it's clear for my why mappers in
Belgium use the value residential often not in the way the should
according the "leading" english wiki. But discussing about some wiki
specials would fill books and we better use the time to correct
OSM-data and -wiki.

Hope that helped
Regards and wish you get a nice day
---


On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> André, Julien,
>
> thanks for the replies. I've forwarded them to Michael and let hem
> answer your questions/remarks/concerns.
>
> My impression, based on aerial imagery, was that only a couple of
> streets might be classified incorrectly, But it hard to tell without
> knowing the area.
> As for the circles in Overpass, they are caused by very small (OSM)
> ways. There is a command that you can add to the css of Overpass to
> avoid them, but I leave it to Michael to solve.
>
> regards
>
> m

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help starting JOSM on Ubuntu (was; Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?)

[Jasper Michels]

-Download josm-tested.jar

http:// josm.openstreetmap.de/


-Zorg dat je de java jdk 8 geinstalleerd hebt.
Indien je jdk 7 geinstalleerd had, verwijder deze dan.

http://tecadmin.net/install-oracle-java-8-jdk-8-ubuntu-via-ppa/

-zou nu een kwestie van dubbelklik op de .jar-file moeten zijn.

Op 13-sep.-2016 23:14 schreef "Erik B" :
>
> Mijn manier om JOSM te gebruiken onder Ubuntu is online als Webstart (dat
werkt ook onder Windows).
> Je hoeft niets te installeren, toch niets van JOSM, en je hebt steeds de
laatste versie.
>
> Probeer eens http://josm.openstreetmap.de/download/josm.jnlp
>
> Erik
>
> Op 13-09-16 om 21:09 schreef André Pirard:
>>
>> On 2016-09-13 18:22, Karel Adams wrote:
>>>
>>> Allen,
>>>
>>> ... JOSM wil om een of andere duistere reden niet opstarten op mijn
ubuntu-bakske.
>>>
>> Alleen,
>>
>> I can try to help you or anyone start JOSM on Ubuntu if you like.
>> What do you do and what do you see?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> André.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[André Pirard]

On 2016-09-14 05:52, Marc Gemis wrote:
> André, Julien,
>
> thanks for the replies. I've forwarded them to Michael and let hem
> answer your questions/remarks/concerns.
>
> My impression, based on aerial imagery, was that only a couple of
> streets might be classified incorrectly, But it hard to tell without
> knowing the area.
> As for the circles in Overpass, they are caused by very small (OSM)
> ways. There is a command that you can add to the css of Overpass to
> avoid them, but I leave it to Michael to solve.
Unfortunately,  trying to route based on administrative classification
is a lost cause.
If we were tweaking it to match usability, someone would soon come to
destroy the work.
My best example is this
.
 
National road N674 !!!
It's a winding narrow road where two lorries can hardly cross each other.
It's bordering a ravine on a great length.
One day, a lorry crumbled the side, fortunately only down a few meters
to the meadow below.
And I once skilfully dodged a van driving much too fast in the sharp bend.
No danger sign at all !!!

I once suggested that objective classification criteria were mapped to
be used for routing.
One which is important and easily mappable from aerial photos is the width.
Straightness can be calculated by the GPS based on topology.
Recommended speed is unhappily more subjective unless we find an
objective measure.
Surface quality too.
I suggested that bouncing could be measured by software using a GSM
accelerometer.

In a town, there is a mesh of major roads that cars follow to travel
inside, not across.
I mentioned boulevards d'Avroy and de la Sauvenière.
Julien mentioned them around place du Marché.
Around the Guillemins, they are avenue E.Digneffe, rue de Fragnée, rue
de Sclessin, rue des Guillemins, rue du Plan Incliné, rue d'Artois &
Fabry & Louvrex, etc.
All those streets could get routing specific tags that no one would disturb.

Cheers

André.









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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[Marc Gemis]

André, Julien,

thanks for the replies. I've forwarded them to Michael and let hem
answer your questions/remarks/concerns.

My impression, based on aerial imagery, was that only a couple of
streets might be classified incorrectly, But it hard to tell without
knowing the area.
As for the circles in Overpass, they are caused by very small (OSM)
ways. There is a command that you can add to the css of Overpass to
avoid them, but I leave it to Michael to solve.

regards

m

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help starting JOSM on Ubuntu (was; Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?)

[Erik B]

Mijn manier om JOSM te gebruiken onder Ubuntu is online als Webstart 
(dat werkt ook onder Windows).
Je hoeft niets te installeren, toch niets van JOSM, en je hebt steeds de 
laatste versie.


Probeer eens http://josm.openstreetmap.de/download/josm.jnlp

Erik

Op 13-09-16 om 21:09 schreef André Pirard:

On 2016-09-13 18:22, Karel Adams wrote:

Allen,

... JOSM wil om een of andere duistere reden niet opstarten op mijn 
ubuntu-bakske.



Alleen,

I can try to help you or anyone start JOSM on Ubuntu if you like.
What do you do and what do you see?

Cheers

André.






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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[Julien Fastré]

Le 13/09/16 à 20:18, André Pirard a écrit :
> On 2016-09-13 18:21, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Hallo,
>>
>> I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
>> He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
>> us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
>> streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
>> translate it to English for him.
> Hi,
> 
> The overpass map doesn't show Liège but the North of it.
> When run, I can't make sense of what I see.
> Could you get rid of the nodes?
> 
> In Liège, most of the ways are residential, of course.
> You can see not yet mapped buildings by displaying the BE PICC layer.
> But, beside surrounding and access motorways, some ways are suitable for
> slower, through traffic.
> Those are brown on OSM.org and mainly: alongside Meuse and Dérivation,
> rue de l'Yser to Ans, N3, N61, N30, N63, N90. (...?)
> Notably missing the brown status is N671 for carrying the heavy traffic
> in direction Namur.
> (The rule is that brown, main National, primary roads are 1 or 2 digits,
> but 671 certainly deserves that).
> Beside that, there are yellow, secondary wider streets bordered by
> buildings like Boulevard de la Sauvenière that can be used for faster
> moving inside town but isn't recommended for traveling through.
> 
> I'm not mapping Liège and I don't know every small streets of it
> everywhere, but I can comment specifics like N671 if no one else stands
> up in this thread.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> André.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> [snipped]
>> Now I want ask you about another problem.
>> Coming from here
>> http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515
>> I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn
>> My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
>> reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
>> lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
>> need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
>> villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
>> as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
>> to make routing better?
>>
>> If there are any questions, please ask.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael aka hurdygurdyman
>>

Hi,

I had a look at the link in overpass-turbo and it seems to me that it is
quite good according to this:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Highways

But I do agree that some road, like En féronstrée
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37341977) et Hors Chateau
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/62360375) or rue de la Régence
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/281936236), which count a lot of
house, could also be considered as "connection to same or higher class
inside of towns or villages".

But, in the wiki, unclassified road are described as :

> Small paved ways, no connecting roads, that typically are located in
rural areas. Houses/building are exceptional.

And, on the page Tag=highway=unclassified :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dunclassified

> The tag highway=unclassified is used for minor public roads typically at the 
> lowest level of the interconnecting grid network. Unclassified roads have 
> lower importance in the road network than tertiary roads, and are not 
> residential streets or agricultural tracks. highway=unclassified should be 
> used for roads used for local traffic and used to connect other towns, 
> villages or hamlets. Unclassified roads are considered usable by motor cars. 


So I wonder if the wikiprojectBelgium is wrong for this description...

Julien



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[OSM-talk-be] Help starting JOSM on Ubuntu (was; Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?)

[André Pirard]

On 2016-09-13 18:22, Karel Adams wrote:
> Allen,
>
> ... JOSM wil om een of andere duistere reden niet opstarten op mijn
> ubuntu-bakske.
>
Alleen,

I can try to help you or anyone start JOSM on Ubuntu if you like.
What do you do and what do you see?

Cheers

André.




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[André Pirard]

On 2016-09-13 18:21, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
> He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
> us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
> streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
> translate it to English for him.
Hi,

The overpass map doesn't show Liège but the North of it.
When run, I can't make sense of what I see.
Could you get rid of the nodes?

In Liège, most of the ways are residential, of course.
You can see not yet mapped buildings by displaying the BE PICC layer.
But, beside surrounding and access motorways, some ways are suitable for
slower, through traffic.
Those are brown on OSM.org and mainly: alongside Meuse and Dérivation,
rue de l'Yser to Ans, N3, N61, N30, N63, N90. (...?)
Notably missing the brown status is N671 for carrying the heavy traffic
in direction Namur.
(The rule is that brown, main National, primary roads are 1 or 2 digits,
but 671 certainly deserves that).
Beside that, there are yellow, secondary wider streets bordered by
buildings like Boulevard de la Sauvenière that can be used for faster
moving inside town but isn't recommended for traveling through.

I'm not mapping Liège and I don't know every small streets of it
everywhere, but I can comment specifics like N671 if no one else stands
up in this thread.

Cheers

André.




>
>
> [snipped]
> Now I want ask you about another problem.
> Coming from here
> http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515
> I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn
> My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
> reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
> lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
> need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
> villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
> as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
> to make routing better?
>
> If there are any questions, please ask.
>
> Regards
> Michael aka hurdygurdyman
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?

[Karel Adams]

Ook jij bedankt Ruben, die andere way heb ik nu ook verwijderd.

Bovenal heb ik van u het eigenlijke antwoord gekregen op mijn vraag: hoe 
krijg ik te zien wat er allemaal vervat zit in een "way=zoveel en 
zoveel" (of nod of wat dan ook).Hoe elementair het ook zal lijken, voor 
de meesten, ik wist het niet en nu weet ik het lekker wel! Nunc dimittis! :)


Karel


On 13/09/16 17:31, Ruben wrote:

Het was inderdaad spurieuze data, die twee kleine ways. Dit[1] is het echte 
aerodrome-object.

Je hebt één van de twee kleine ways verwijderd[2], en van de ander alle tags 
verwijderd[3]. Die laatste moet dus nog verwijderd worden en dan is alles in 
orde denk ik.

[1] http://osm.org/way/161204831
[2] http://osm.org/way/161204833, in changeset #42130376, analyse: 
https://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=42130376
[3] http://osm.org/way/161204839, in changeset #42130517, analyse: 
https://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=42130517

On dinsdag 13 september 2016 16:51 Karel Adams wrote:

Marc, dat was wel een erg prompte reactie, en dan nog effectief ook!

Dank zij die tip heb ik de brol inderdaad weggekregen, of toch minstens
"weg genoeg" voor mijn intenties. Inderdaad: als je in Potlatch doorheen
een "way" wandelt, en een voor een de samenstellende nodes aanklikt, dan
kun je op elke node een / tikken (als je althans op een qwerty tikt) en
dan krijg je telkens een andere way te zien waarvan de betreffende node
deel uitmaakt - als er meerdere zijn.

Op die wijze heb ik de gewraakte ways kunnen vinden en er het "aeroway"
tag van verwijderen. Ik vrees weliswaar dat ze daarmee niet helemaal weg
zijn, ook al hebben ze nu geen enkele tag meer, echt proper zal het nog
niet zijn vrees ik.

Ook het uitschakelen van de Bing-achtergrond hield wel een beetje om de
zaak wat overzichtelijker te maken, er is daar met bijzonder veel
overtuiging gemapt geworden geweest in die contreien. Effort worthy of a
better cause, denk ik dan... maar goede wil moet men altijd op prijs
stellen...

Welbedankt!

Karel




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?

[Ruben]

Het was inderdaad spurieuze data, die twee kleine ways. Dit[1] is het echte 
aerodrome-object.

Je hebt één van de twee kleine ways verwijderd[2], en van de ander alle tags 
verwijderd[3]. Die laatste moet dus nog verwijderd worden en dan is alles in 
orde denk ik.

[1] http://osm.org/way/161204831
[2] http://osm.org/way/161204833, in changeset #42130376, analyse: 
https://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=42130376
[3] http://osm.org/way/161204839, in changeset #42130517, analyse: 
https://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=42130517

On dinsdag 13 september 2016 16:51 Karel Adams wrote:
> Marc, dat was wel een erg prompte reactie, en dan nog effectief ook!
> 
> Dank zij die tip heb ik de brol inderdaad weggekregen, of toch minstens 
> "weg genoeg" voor mijn intenties. Inderdaad: als je in Potlatch doorheen 
> een "way" wandelt, en een voor een de samenstellende nodes aanklikt, dan 
> kun je op elke node een / tikken (als je althans op een qwerty tikt) en 
> dan krijg je telkens een andere way te zien waarvan de betreffende node 
> deel uitmaakt - als er meerdere zijn.
> 
> Op die wijze heb ik de gewraakte ways kunnen vinden en er het "aeroway" 
> tag van verwijderen. Ik vrees weliswaar dat ze daarmee niet helemaal weg 
> zijn, ook al hebben ze nu geen enkele tag meer, echt proper zal het nog 
> niet zijn vrees ik.
> 
> Ook het uitschakelen van de Bing-achtergrond hield wel een beetje om de 
> zaak wat overzichtelijker te maken, er is daar met bijzonder veel 
> overtuiging gemapt geworden geweest in die contreien. Effort worthy of a 
> better cause, denk ik dan... maar goede wil moet men altijd op prijs 
> stellen...
> 
> Welbedankt!
> 
> Karel




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?

[Karel Adams]

Marc, dat was wel een erg prompte reactie, en dan nog effectief ook!

Dank zij die tip heb ik de brol inderdaad weggekregen, of toch minstens 
"weg genoeg" voor mijn intenties. Inderdaad: als je in Potlatch doorheen 
een "way" wandelt, en een voor een de samenstellende nodes aanklikt, dan 
kun je op elke node een / tikken (als je althans op een qwerty tikt) en 
dan krijg je telkens een andere way te zien waarvan de betreffende node 
deel uitmaakt - als er meerdere zijn.


Op die wijze heb ik de gewraakte ways kunnen vinden en er het "aeroway" 
tag van verwijderen. Ik vrees weliswaar dat ze daarmee niet helemaal weg 
zijn, ook al hebben ze nu geen enkele tag meer, echt proper zal het nog 
niet zijn vrees ik.


Ook het uitschakelen van de Bing-achtergrond hield wel een beetje om de 
zaak wat overzichtelijker te maken, er is daar met bijzonder veel 
overtuiging gemapt geworden geweest in die contreien. Effort worthy of a 
better cause, denk ik dan... maar goede wil moet men altijd op prijs 
stellen...


Welbedankt!

Karel



On 13/09/16 16:28, Marc Gemis wrote:

Karel,

er zijn 2 wegen die overlappen. Ik ken Potlach niet, maar ik hoop dat
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/13735/my-question-is-how-to-see-an-overlapping-way-using-the-potlatch2
het antwoord biedt op je vraag. Daar staat uitgelegd hoe je de
"onderliggende" ways kan selecteren.

mvg

m

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?

[Marc Gemis]

Karel,

er zijn 2 wegen die overlappen. Ik ken Potlach niet, maar ik hoop dat
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/13735/my-question-is-how-to-see-an-overlapping-way-using-the-potlatch2
het antwoord biedt op je vraag. Daar staat uitgelegd hoe je de
"onderliggende" ways kan selecteren.

mvg

m

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[OSM-talk-be] Help! Hoe kan ik deze editeren?

[Karel Adams]

Allen,

Onderstaande lijken mij bijna zeker ten onrechte gemapt, ik wil ze graag 
bijwerken (misschien, als ze toch reden van bestaan hebben) of 
verwijderen (wat waarschijnlijker lijkt).


Maar ik slaag er maar niet in om ze nog maar te zien te krijgen, toch al 
zeker niet in Potlatch, dat ik gewoonlijk gebruik, JOSM wil om een of 
andere duistere reden niet opstarten op mijn ubuntu-bakske.


Hoe pak ik dit aan? Met excuses als het een stomme vraag is, maar ik zit 
echt wel vast...


Is er tenminste een manier om deze beide items als dusdanig te tonen op 
een kaart, met identificatie van de samenstellende coordinatenparen? Als 
ik dat had dan was er hoop...


Karel


  





  
  






  


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[OSM-talk-be] Routing in Liège

[Marc Gemis]

Hallo,

I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
translate it to English for him.


[snipped]
Now I want ask you about another problem.
Coming from here
http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515
I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn
My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
to make routing better?

If there are any questions, please ask.

Regards
Michael aka hurdygurdyman

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