Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Cadastral information
Copyright. The information is subject to state copyright. The OSM Foundation has an agreement with the Chief Directorate: National Geo-Spatial Information to use their data (which is also subject to state copyright), but that does not include data held by other departments, such as the Surveyor-General. Unless a similar agreement is entered into with the Surveyor-General you cannot use the data. Lance Burger On 01/10/2013 17:24, Norman Woodward wrote: I live in the district of Mossel Bay. I obtained from the local council the cadastral erf co-ordinates and erf numbers, which I am told comes from general surveys office. I would like to convert the gps data to a layer, which would mean that the data layer now only containing the streets would also contain the drawn layout of all the erf's. My question is that I can not see that anyone else has done it and wonder why? ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Rivers in South Africa
This data comes from CD:NGI. It is either the same data or a lower resolution data from the shape files that we obtained from CD:NGI under the agreement OSM Foundation has with CD:NGI. I suggest that you rather use the shapefiles that we have and import those. In terms of the agreement all those imports need the tag source=CD:NGI The tracing from aerial photograph needs the tag, but I cannot remember what tag we agreed on. Grant, was it: source=aerialCDNGI? We should put this information on the South Africa Wiki. The imports will have to be by small areas at a time, so as to make sure that we do not over write better data that we already have. Grant Slater asked for some help doing the import some time ago, but I am not sure how many takers there were, if any. Lance Burger On Sun, 2013-01-27 at 21:10 +, Gerhardus Geldenhuis wrote: Hi I just came accross this link: http://www.dwaf.gov.za/iwqs/gis_data/river/rivs500k.html The information is made available as is with no copyright mentioned that I could see. Given the lack of good river tracing covering the whole of South Africa would this be worthwhile spending some time on importing if the legal side is clean? Regards -- Gerhardus Geldenhuis ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Koffiekraal mapping
Jirka, Not sure what the quality is of your NGI photo. Grant Slater has fairly good rectified imagery for the area, some of which I have just traced in that area. If someone can host the information Grant will make it available for all us to be able to trace the aerial photographs. Lance Burger On Tue, 2012-08-21 at 12:30 +0200, Jirka Panek wrote: Hi John, yes you are right, this is the place, pretty much unmapped :-) Bing sucks in that area, I was there last week and did some mapping, plus I have NGI aerial photo... Plus we have some local guys helping us to map in an old way - paper based mapping and then digitalisation to the OSM. Jirka 2012/8/21 John john@gmail.com: Hi Jirka, To get some context is this the Koffiekraal you are referring to? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-25.529lon=27.416zoom=9mlat=-25.27556mlon=26.4layers=M If so it it pretty unmapped!! Bing only covers it at lowest resolution. Do you plan to camp out there?? It will definitely need local support. All the best, Regards, John On 21 August 2012 10:33, Jirka Panek jirkapa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I am a GIS researcher from the Czech Republic (http://www.development.upol.cz/cs_CZ/lide/jiri-panek) and currently I am visiting the University of South Africa (UNISA), where we do participatory mapping/GIS in village called Koffiekraal (NW). We would like to use this place as an example how participatory community mapping can look like in order to empower local communities and place it on a map. I wanted to ask, if there are any volunteers who would like to help me mapping the Koffiejkraal village, as there is basically nothing on OSM so far. Thanks and keep well JirkaPanek ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Southern Africa ut-of copyright raster maps available
I obtained the Western Cape 1:50 000 in *.tif files from the Chief Directorate: National Geo-Spatial Information. I had to go through them individually to find out which were published before 1960, i.e. on which the copyright has expired. There are 39 of these. It would be useful to have this as a slippery map when editing in JOSM, particularly tracing rivers, possibly some roads and mountain peaks, including heights (if converted from feet to meters). I hope to get the rest of South Africa some time, but it will take time to pick out the ones on which the copyright has expired. I have no idea how to do this, and Grant's instructions is Greek to me. Is there someone else who can do this? Who should I send the data to? Lance Burger On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 10:10 +0100, Grant Slater wrote: If I get a chance, I'll have a go at re-projecting and turning into a slippymap. Also happy to help someone else do this. Basic steps: 1) Crop images to borders 2) Add control points via gdal_translate (jpg - geotiff) 3) gdal_warp to EPSG:900913 (reproject) 4) tile... using patched gdal2tiles (patch changes TMS origin from bottom left to top left.) or other script I have the scripts that were used for the UK Ordnance Survey map conversion: http://os.openstreetmap.org/ / Grant On 22 April 2010 09:43, Lance Burger lance.bur...@mweb.co.za wrote: I had a look at the maps. It is very interesting to see them and the copyright on them has expired. Unfortunately the scale is rather small, 1:250 000. It would be useful to trace some rivers, but it would not be very accurate. I will try to find some old higher resolution maps from the Department of Trig Survey, or whatever it is called now. Lance Burger On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 18:10 +0200, John Grant wrote: (Follow on from and earlier thread- CD:SM Topographic map of ZA in Nov) In November there was some discussion about a source of out-of copyright raster maps which may be useful for mapping Rivers, geological info etc. The University of Texas has a great collection of 1:25 US army maps which may serve this purpose: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/south_africa/ Copyright info under FAQs http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/faq.html#3.html If nothing else they are beautifully made, good resolution and of historic interest. Regards, John ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Southern Africa ut-of copyright raster maps available
I had a look at the maps. It is very interesting to see them and the copyright on them has expired. Unfortunately the scale is rather small, 1:250 000. It would be useful to trace some rivers, but it would not be very accurate. I will try to find some old higher resolution maps from the Department of Trig Survey, or whatever it is called now. Lance Burger On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 18:10 +0200, John Grant wrote: (Follow on from and earlier thread- CD:SM Topographic map of ZA in Nov) In November there was some discussion about a source of out-of copyright raster maps which may be useful for mapping Rivers, geological info etc. The University of Texas has a great collection of 1:25 US army maps which may serve this purpose: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/south_africa/ Copyright info under FAQs http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/faq.html#3.html If nothing else they are beautifully made, good resolution and of historic interest. Regards, John ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] Data logger recommendations please
Heinz, I suggest you get a 12V DC to 220V AC inverter. I bought one a year or two ago at Builders Warehouse. As far as I recall it was a few hundred Rand. You plug that in the 12V socket of your car and can then charge your laptop (and a few other things) from the inverter. Lance Burger On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 13:39 +0200, Heinz Meulke wrote: Generally whenever I drive somewhere I take a laptop along (with 3G) and download from my Etrex garmin every +- 600km (with the most detailed logging). I have an upcoming trip through Mozambique (in about a month) that will last about 10 days, and I will not have any power, so the laptop is likely to run out of battery power (and it is a huge thing to lug around) so I am looking for something that could record all points, and save them without any drama. Something with detailed logging, good enough for nice detailed maps. So thanks Nic I might take you up on the offer. Regards Heinz On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Heinz, I'm very happy with my 2 WinCE based GPSs (Telefunken and JNC) with my gosmore software. They record to SD card, so they're unlimited. And you can view, route, search and perform basic editing. Major retailers (Pick 'n Pay) no longer stock these units, but you can find one through junk mail or bidorbuy (+- R1000). They all have builtin Lithium Ion batteries that will last a few hours and can be charged from USB or from a car. You can borrow my Telefunken if you like. It has experienced a lot of wear and tear, but is still fully functional. I have an external antenna for it with a long lead, but I've never even thought of using it. I received a Gecko 201 from the Foundation. It also has a limit of 10k points but the logging frequency can be reduced. It's quite small and runs from AAA batteries, so it's nice for hiking trips. Generating routes for it with yournavigation takes a bit of work, but is great for cycling. (It's a pity you didn't ask before SotM...) Regards, Nic On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Heinz Meulke heinz.meu...@gmail.com wrote: I currently have a Garmin Extrex GPS and I am always keen to log trips wherever I drive, but it only keeps points and I frequently manage to fill it up. I need something that can record lots(unlimited) points. So should I travel for 2 weeks I do not need to frequently stop and download tracklogs. Any recommendations? What do other people use? There are lots of data loggers on the market, but where to start? Any good ones? Thanks Heinz ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za -- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D4D465452snlb xq | dc question = ( to ) ? be : ! be; -- Wm. Shakespeare ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
[OSM-Talk-ZA] OpenStreetmap: West Coast
Dear Brendan, I was on the West Coast last weekend. I mapped some features in the West Coast National Park (as well as more accurate positions for the Wind generators). I have also connected the road through the park to Langebaan and some streets there. I go up there fairly regularly and will continue to map parts of the park while cycling through it. I have also been adding traffic lights names of places in the Cape Town CBD from memory as I know it well. I will continue to do so. Your efforts with the Surveyor-General is worthwhile pursuing. If we can get all cadastral information it will be excellent. What about organizing a public lecture at UCT on OpenStreetmap on evening? Have a talk on copyright, mapping techniques, discussion about features specific to South Africa, discussion about how to get more data from the Government. Invite the Surveyor-General (after hearing us it might help us to obtain some data). Invite some journalists (which will hopefully generate some publicity). We should also talk about the most efficient way of getting information to upload. Some things can only be done on the ground, but there is a lot of information that can be obtained from aerial photographs or from other sources (such as municipalities) in bulk. What about getting the Cape Town based mappers together to talk about organizing such a public lecture? Lance Burger ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products
What you are quoting from below is part of the draft policy on pricing referred to by Grant. It is not the law. It might not even be the actual policy. Unless we know for sure that it in fact policy I would not rely on it at all. No policy document can change the law. At best policy might grant a licence in terms of the Copyright Act. In my reading of the draft policy (assuming it is actual policy) the parts quoted below is not clear that it give us a licence to use the date to make a copy. The words quoted may be either a public (badly expressed, very vague as to the extent thereof) licence to use, or it might just be the particular official's paraphrasing of the law. It does appear that you are right that it is more likely the former, but it is far from clear. In any event, I cannot see how we can comply with the requirement that the State copyright be acknowledged. I suggest that until we know that the draft policy is promulgated we not consider it further. Let us rather wait for the outcome of the specific request to use the data. Lance Burger -Original Message- From: Bernd Jendrissek [mailto:bernd.jendris...@gmail.com] Sent: 12 June 2009 06:37 PM To: Lance Burger Cc: brendan barrett; Grant Slater; Openstreetmap ZA Subject: Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Lance Burgerlance.bur...@mweb.co.za wrote: Using a copyrighted work as such is not an infringement (it is not an infringement to read a book which is subject to copyright), but both reproducing the work and making an adaptation of the work are infringements in terms of section 7. This is what confuses me: just using (in the sense of reading a book) a copyrighted work is _never_ an infringement, assuming you legally obtained that copy (which isn't in dispute). So why is it even mentioned that Any ... may use such products and services without obtaining specific authorisation? It reads more like a public licence than an interpretation of copyright law. To me anyway, and I'm not a lawyer, you might be, so I'm asking for more patient explanation :) The or parts thereof also leaves me thinking that using includes making derivative works. The sentence or two describing the required acknowledgement of State Copyright would also be moot if this was just a matter of reading a book. A suitable statement ... must be included with such product seems to me to be contemplating said person or private sector organisation (re)distributing a (possibly derived) work. It depends on what the definition of 'is' is. ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products
We cannot trace from the Government Survey aerial photographs. That would be copying and that argument that tracing is not copying will never succeed in a court. Tracing is just one method of copying. If we can get aerial photographs from another entity that holds the copyright then we can use that with their permission. Let us wait to see the response to Nic from SITA. We can reconsider after that. Lance Burger -Original Message- From: talk-za-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-za-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of brendan barrett Sent: 13 June 2009 02:58 AM To: Nic Roets Cc: Openstreetmap ZA Subject: Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products Agreed, we want to keep whiter than white, which is why we've been going to great lengths to get permission from gov (SG, CD, SITA)... even though the municipalities (and even some private mapping companies - in Stellies and Mpumalanga) are literally throwing data at us. I've got CD's and emailed files from all over the place... all with one thing in common... it's all state copyright, and they can't grant us permission to distribute. From what we can tell, that power lies with SITA. As of yet, we are still awaiting a response from SITA on the use of maps under state copyright within OSM. We were supposed to have a response nearly two weeks ago, but it appears that we are not high on their priority list (and yes, we've been following up... but patience is a virtue). To be honest, I doubt that they will allow us to use their data. I think they have the interests of the bigger private mapping companies at heart. I have a feeling we will have to continue mapping SA on our aces. The one thing that I am quite happy about is that there is a little activity on the mailing list:D Nic's comment: We can consider tracing from State aerial photos... That's not a half bad idea. When I spoke to City of Cape Town, they said that they didn't want to release their aerial photography because they needed to recover the cost of production. Perhaps gov wouldn't mind releasing aerial photos for us to trace off if we only allow a limited number of users to trace off the data. We would have no intentions of distributing it, just deriving street data. We could set up a WMS layer with the data and only allow some local users access? Might not make sense for Cape Town (already pretty well mapped - and we have Cape Town GIS data already). Then again... if they don't allow us to use their shape file data... there's little hope of using the photography to trace off isn't there:/ Regards, Brendan On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Nic Roetsnro...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Bernd Jendrissek bernd.jendris...@gmail.com wrote: The or parts thereof also leaves me thinking that using includes making derivative works. The sentence or two describing the required acknowledgement of State Copyright would also be moot if this was just a matter of reading a book. A suitable statement ... must be included with such product seems to me to be contemplating said person or private sector organisation (re)distributing a (possibly derived) work. Well spotted. The acknowledgement requirement indicates that some forms of redistribution is allowed. My guess is that the writer was thinking about * the case where someone bundles his software with State data to N (specific) clients, so he asks the government for N copies of the data and they give him one copy and tell him to make his own copies. * or where someone combines State data with data from other sources to make a specific map. Like an environmental impact study. But it's not clear if it's redistribution with or without fee and if it refers to redistribution of a substantial part or only a few excepts (e.g. fair use / fair trading). OSM has so far not taken risks like these. See e.g. http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=100 We can consider tracing from State aerial photos. If the may use such products wording does not protect us, then we use Richard's argument that tracing is not copying. ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products
I had a look at the Spatial Data Infrastructure Act 54 of 2003 (now an Act, no longer a bill as referred to in the draft policy mention by Grant). There is nothing in that SDI Act that indicates that authorizes one to copy the data in which the State holds the copyright. It seems clear that the State holds the copyright in the topographic and other maps (and nautical charts). Unless a licence is given to us to take the information from these maps and upload them to OSM, we would be infringing on the copyright by doing so. It would be an infringement in terms of section 23 of the Copyright Act 98 of 1978 (read with section 6). There is an argument that a map is neither a literary work nor an artistic work as defined in the Act, but such an argument is unlikely to succeed. We must not confuse what we think the law and policy should be with what it actually is. Unless we obtain a written licence to take and upload the information to OSM we must refrain to do so (and I am not holding my breath that we will get such license). Lance Burger -Original Message- From: talk-za-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-za-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of brendan barrett Sent: 12 June 2009 01:20 PM To: Grant Slater Cc: Openstreetmap ZA Subject: Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products I've seen those links, and you would think that the law is on our side. From what I understand, we still require permission to distribute the information, although I may be wrong (and really hope I am). The unfortunate thing is that if we do need permission to distribute, it leaves the following situation: - Anyone can go to government and demand a copy of the spatial information. - We would be assisting government in distributing this information (as many people would rather use OSM than grab shape files from every different government department). This reduces the cost to government (time wasted in providing info etc). - Government (or rather some people within government) don't want us to distribute the data because it would torpedo the mapping industry. It's a pity, because by not allowing us to use the information, they are not going to stop us... just they won't get any credit (attribution) when we do cover the whole country. This excludes Cape Town and Durban that have allowed us to use their data and already have attribution of course. I second the call for more investigation around this. Is there anyone in the ZA list with a legal background that can fully understand these documents? A better understanding of the legal framework around South African spatial data would definitely be helpful. We are still waiting on the CEO of SITA for a response on the use of SITA data in Open Street Map. Their offices seem to be very busy and getting a response is taking a long time. I really don't know what the response will be at this point, because we've had positive and negative responses from different people in the department do far. I remain hopeful. Regards, Brendan On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Grant Slateropenstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: OSM ZA, A few of us have been trying to get government data to include in OSM... While the Public Access to Information Act allows us to get the data relatively easily it does not answer the question of copyright and usage terms... I recently found the following draft(?) policy which might be useful: Copyright and ownership The spatial information products and services originated by the State are protected in terms of the Copyright Act, 1978 (Act 98 of 1978). As the State President is the holder of State copyright, all organs of State enjoy unhindered use of the spatial information products and services of other organs of State, without a need for further permission to copy in terms of that copyright. Where a copy of a spatial information product is made available to any third party outside the State, that private sector client must be made aware of the existence of State copyright and ownership of that information by the State. Any person or private sector organisation using spatial information products and services, or parts thereof, originated by the State (i.e. State copyright exists) may use such products and services without obtaining specific authorisation. State copyright must, however, be acknowledged by such person or organisation. A suitable statement to this effect with the applicable currency date or edition date of the data/product (e.g. State copyright acknowledged for .. Source : Statistics SA, 1996) must be included with such product, irrespective whether it be in digital or printed form. The State (through the respective department) retains the full ownership of its information, products and services at all times - access to information does not give ownership of the information to the client. Source: http://gis.ecprov.gov.za/SIMUWebsite/DocumentsPolicies/PolicyPricingCopyrigh
Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products
No. Using spatial information might or might not be making a derivative work. If it involves using the information on a map (positions of data points) and uploading it to OSM it would be an infringement. I need to correct that the reference in my previous e-mail to section 6 of the Copyright Act should have been to section 7, as maps probably fall under the definition of artistic words, rather than literary works. Using a copyrighted work as such is not an infringement (it is not an infringement to read a book which is subject to copyright), but both reproducing the work and making an adaptation of the work are infringements in terms of section 7. Lance Burger -Original Message- From: Bernd Jendrissek [mailto:bernd.jendris...@gmail.com] Sent: 12 June 2009 03:51 PM To: Lance Burger Cc: brendan barrett; Grant Slater; Openstreetmap ZA Subject: Re: [OSM-Talk-ZA] State Copyright on Spatial Information Products On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Lance Burgerlance.bur...@mweb.co.za wrote: I had a look at the Spatial Data Infrastructure Act 54 of 2003 (now an Act, no longer a bill as referred to in the draft policy mention by Grant). There is nothing in that SDI Act that indicates that authorizes one to copy the data in which the State holds the copyright. Are you saying that using spatial information products and services, or parts thereof does not mean to include ... to make a derivative work? ___ Talk-ZA mailing list Talk-ZA@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
