Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
Hi, I sent this message to llnoxll. Regards, Julien > Bonjour, > > Petite partie en anglais, au cas où tu ne parlerais pas français: I > assume you are a french speaker because you contribute in > French-speaking parts of the world. If you speak English or Dutch, do > not hesitate to warn me and I will translate my mail. > > Bienvenue sur OSM ! Nous avons remarqué que tu t'es inscrit sur OSM et > que tu as déjà effectué quelques contributions au projet. > > Je me présente : je suis un contributeur depuis 2-3 ans, > essentiellement dans la région de Liège. > > Vendredi dernier, j'étais en train de contribuer lorsque j'ai remarqué > que la Meuse avait disparu de ma ville. Et en remontant le fil de > l'eau, j'ai vu qu'elle avait même disparu jusque Namur. > > En consultant l'historique de la relation "Meuse" j'ai remarqué que tu > avais été l'un des derniers à l'avoir modifié. J'ai rapidement trouvé > ton erreur et j'ai pu la réparer. > > Vraiment, il n'y a rien de grave: ce sont des choses qui arrive, et > des accidents de ce type, même avec une certaine expérience, il nous > arrive d'en faire ! > > Cependant, je me suis dit que, voyant que tu continuais à contribuer, > j'allais te contacter pour t'expliquer la manipulation qui a fait > "disparaitre" tout le fleuve, histoire que tu puisses y être attentif > dans tes prochaines contributions. > > En fait, la Meuse est représentée par deux objets: le premier est un > chemin, qui est situé plus ou moins au centre de la rivière. Et puis, > étant large, elle est un multipolygone qui dessine sa surface, de > berge à berge. > > Tu trouveras plus d'infos sur les multipolygones ici : > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multipolygon > > (n'hésite pas, d'ailleurs, à consulter abondamment le wiki qui > contient plein de choses intéressantes). > > Lors d'une de tes contributions, il semble que tu ais supprimé un > chemin qui formait ce multipolygone et que tu l'ais remplacé par une > route, qui s'étendait sur la berge du fleuve. > > J'ai donc fait un "revert" (une sorte de magie noire par laquelle j'ai > annulé une partie de tes modifications) et corrigé le problème. Dès > que j'ai pu l'identifier, ça m'a pris quelques minutes à peine. > > Pourrais-tu être attentif aux multipolygones à l'avenir ? > > Enfin, quelques petits conseils: - je vois que tu utilises l'éditeur > en ligne Plotlatch pour tes modifs. Pour ma part, je préfère nettement > JOSM, qui est beaucoup plus précis, et qui contient plus de messages > d'avertissements. Il suffit de le télécharger sur > http://josm.openstreetmap.de - je t'invite à t'inscrire à la > mailing-liste belge des contributeurs OSM > (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be). Ca n'est pas > indispensable, mais c'est un endroit intéressant pour apprendre plein > de choses. C'est également là que l'on discute des "accidents" comme > la disparition de La Meuse. La langue principale est l'anglais, mais > si tu parles français ou néerlandais, personne ne t'en voudras ! (je > pense) > > Si tu as des questions, n'hésite pas me contacter, je te répondrais > avec plaisir. > > Bonnes contributions, Julien Fastré > Le 04/01/2013 14:43, A.Pirard.Papou a écrit : > On 2013-01-04 13:35, Julien Fastré wrote : >> Hi, >> >> The guy split a outer-way into two parts, convert one parts to a >> road, and did not add the old part to the multipolygon. So, this was >> not closed any more. > That's what must happen when one uses the same way for different kinds > of objects. > A change to one of the object destroys the other object unintentionally. > Either carelessly or by ignorance. > This should be explained to newer taggers. > That's why I carefully detached administrative boundaries from the > Meuse in that neighborhood. > > The same kind of problems often occur with landuse. > I often make corrections to roads that are 10 to 50 m off course, and > even more. > And I find that landuse often attach to everything they can. > Even when crossing a road at 90° will some landuses have a dot in > common with the road. > Consequently, when one segment of the road is moved to the correct > place, the whole landuse moves too. > Well, I'd prefer not to have to cope with landuse too when I'm > correcting roads. > In theory, if they attach landuse to a road, they want the landuse > moved with the road, don't they. > But in doing so, the other attached roads at the other far away side > move too. > In practice, I detach the whole landuse from everything. > > Could this landuse supergluing please stop? > Could their taggers be called back to correct their mistakes? > > Cordialement, > > André. > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On 2013-01-04 13:35, Julien Fastré wrote : Hi, The guy split a outer-way into two parts, convert one parts to a road, and did not add the old part to the multipolygon. So, this was not closed any more. That's what must happen when one uses the same way for different kinds of objects. A change to one of the object destroys the other object unintentionally. Either carelessly or by ignorance. This should be explained to newer taggers. That's why I carefully detached administrative boundaries from the Meuse in that neighborhood. The same kind of problems often occur with landuse. I often make corrections to roads that are 10 to 50 m off course, and even more. And I find that landuse often attach to everything they can. Even when crossing a road at 90° will some landuses have a dot in common with the road. Consequently, when one segment of the road is moved to the correct place, the whole landuse moves too. Well, I'd prefer not to have to cope with landuse too when I'm correcting roads. In theory, if they attach landuse to a road, they want the landuse moved with the road, don't they. But in doing so, the other attached roads at the other far away side move too. In practice, I detach the whole landuse from everything. Could this landuse supergluing please stop? Could their taggers be called back to correct their mistakes? Cordialement, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, wannes wrote: > On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Ben Laenen wrote: >> >> because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before the >> bad edit is uploaded. > > > Is there a possibility tho watch a certain area, neighbourhood, ... for > edits and get a followup by email? Not that I know of (please correct me if otherwise), but I think it would be possible to download the daily diffs and have a script check for edits within a certain area. Anyone here worked with the diffs before? But does anyone else have the problem that, if you view edits within a certain area, it's so often filled up with bots (or sometimes users) doing global bug fixes? Reduces the usefulness of area-based history. It looks like OSM only looks at the bounding box and not if there's actually an edit from that changeset in your view. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:47:29 wannes wrote: > On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Ben Laenen wrote: > > because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before the > > bad edit is uploaded. > > Is there a possibility tho watch a certain area, neighbourhood, ... for > edits and get a followup by email? Don't know about e-mails, but a beta has just been released to display where things have recently changed: http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/ (click the history tab), and there's a link to a rss feed as well. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Ben Laenen wrote: > because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before the > bad edit is uploaded. > Is there a possibility tho watch a certain area, neighbourhood, ... for edits and get a followup by email? -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
Hi, The guy split a outer-way into two parts, convert one parts to a road, and did not add the old part to the multipolygon. So, this was not closed any more. I did my best : http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14524952 It seems ok now (http://analyser.openstreetmap.fr/cgi-bin/index.py - relation id : 49588) although it does not appears on the mapnik layer (OpenMapquest does) I am going to write to llnoxll this afternoon. Julien Le 04/01/13 13:22, Ben Laenen a écrit : On Friday 04 January 2013 13:09:02 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: Just keep an eye on them, as Julien has done, and teach the new users about relations as needed. The larger multipolygon is a more accurate representation, as long as we don't have a proper area data type. It's not really more accurate, as we don't have a one to one mapping from real life objects to OSM objects. Our roads for example are also often split up into many pieces. And by breaking up a huge object into manageable parts you can more easily repair it when someone does something wrong, which still matters because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before the bad edit is uploaded. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
I'm thinking of how it represents the shoreline, and as one logical object rather than touching 'lakes'. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who has considered mapping roads as multilinestrings. I think Julien's approach is best with regards to repair: revert, teach the new user, and then let them make the edit in the right way. That treats the cause, not the symptom. - Jw --- Sent from a cell phone On Jan 4, 2013 1:22 PM, "Ben Laenen" wrote: > On Friday 04 January 2013 13:09:02 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > > Just keep an eye on them, as Julien has done, and teach the new users > about > > relations as needed. The larger multipolygon is a more accurate > > representation, as long as we don't have a proper area data type. > > It's not really more accurate, as we don't have a one to one mapping from > real > life objects to OSM objects. Our roads for example are also often split up > into many pieces. And by breaking up a huge object into manageable parts > you > can more easily repair it when someone does something wrong, which still > matters because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before > the > bad edit is uploaded. > > Ben > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:09:02 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > Just keep an eye on them, as Julien has done, and teach the new users about > relations as needed. The larger multipolygon is a more accurate > representation, as long as we don't have a proper area data type. It's not really more accurate, as we don't have a one to one mapping from real life objects to OSM objects. Our roads for example are also often split up into many pieces. And by breaking up a huge object into manageable parts you can more easily repair it when someone does something wrong, which still matters because we don't have a review process so we can intervene before the bad edit is uploaded. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
Just keep an eye on them, as Julien has done, and teach the new users about relations as needed. The larger multipolygon is a more accurate representation, as long as we don't have a proper area data type. - Jw --- Sent from a cell phone On Jan 4, 2013 12:25 PM, "Ben Laenen" wrote: > On Friday 04 January 2013 12:12:29 Julien Fastré wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The Maas River disappeared from the map :-) > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.61063&lon=5.55003&zoom=15&layers=M > > > > It seems that the multipolygon is broken. > > > > This is due to a newby, which made some change yesterday: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14511386 > > I wouldn't recommend creating multipolygons with huge sizes like that btw. > It's just asking for trouble... The Albertkanaal for example is one > multipolygon from Antwerp to Liege, it only takes one bad edit to make it > disappear, and it is quite difficult to repair such objects... > > Ben > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Maas/La Meuse disappearing...
On Friday 04 January 2013 12:12:29 Julien Fastré wrote: > Hi, > > The Maas River disappeared from the map :-) > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.61063&lon=5.55003&zoom=15&layers=M > > It seems that the multipolygon is broken. > > This is due to a newby, which made some change yesterday: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14511386 I wouldn't recommend creating multipolygons with huge sizes like that btw. It's just asking for trouble... The Albertkanaal for example is one multipolygon from Antwerp to Liege, it only takes one bad edit to make it disappear, and it is quite difficult to repair such objects... Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
