Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints
Really good idea! Daniel -Original Message- From: Steve Singer [mailto:ssinger...@sympatico.ca] Sent: 4 décembre 2011 09:23 To: Connors, Bernie (SNB) Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Connors, Bernie (SNB) wrote: Richard, Do you have a link to Import Guidelines that are specific to Canvec data? I think http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CanVec needs to have some specific guidelines for canvec imports. In particular 1. A caution to avoid importing coastlines or large lakes unless you have substantial experience importing canvec and understand how coastlines get generated/rendered in OSM. We have had enough problems/complaints with coastlines that I think we need a specific caution. 2. A warning to avoid duplicate features. (one might argue that this is obvious but the generic import guidelines don't actually mention this and clearly people are importing a lot of duplicate features) 3. To check keeprite (or something similar) after your import so you can find/fix some of the problems you will create. If no one objects I will update the above mentioned wiki page to reflect include those warnings. Steve Bernie. -- Bernie Connors, P.Eng Service New Brunswick (506) 444-2077 45°56'25.21N, 66°38'53.65W www.snb.ca/geonb/ -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: Friday, 2011-12-02 13:23 To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: [Talk-ca] import complaints dear all, I've heard some LOUD complaints about imports in Canada. Please be sure to follow the import guidelines, including special import accounts, and please be sure to check your work and fix errors. Latest issue appears to be a large broken water polygon. Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Milton, Ontario Canvec 8
Hi all, I'm having a look at Milton, where a decliner imported a single canvec tile 30M12.0.1. It appears to be just the non-road features; mostly water and woods, so far. I'm planning to replace the canvec6 tile with canvec8 later tonight or tomorrow. This means removing canvec6, which appears to be untouched except for some of my own edits. My goal is to first replace with at-least-no-worse than the current data, then improve by removing quad borders and connecting polygons. Thoughts? Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Milton, Ontario Canvec 8
From: Richard Weait [rich...@weait.com] Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: [Talk-ca] Milton, Ontario Canvec 8 then improve by removing quad borders and connecting polygons. Slightly OT: are there any good tools for speeding up that process? I do a bit of clean-up with the normal JOSM functions every now and then, but it's fairly tedious. Best, Harald. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints
On 4-12-2011 15:22, Steve Singer wrote: On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Connors, Bernie (SNB) wrote: Richard, Do you have a link to Import Guidelines that are specific to Canvec data? I think http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CanVec needs to have some specific guidelines for canvec imports. In particular 1. A caution to avoid importing coastlines or large lakes unless you have substantial experience importing canvec and understand how coastlines get generated/rendered in OSM. We have had enough problems/complaints with coastlines that I think we need a specific caution. 2. A warning to avoid duplicate features. (one might argue that this is obvious but the generic import guidelines don't actually mention this and clearly people are importing a lot of duplicate features) 3. To check keeprite (or something similar) after your import so you can find/fix some of the problems you will create. If no one objects I will update the above mentioned wiki page to reflect include those warnings. Steve Bernie. -- Bernie Connors, P.Eng Service New Brunswick (506) 444-2077 45°56'25.21N, 66°38'53.65W www.snb.ca/geonb/ -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: Friday, 2011-12-02 13:23 To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: [Talk-ca] import complaints dear all, I've heard some LOUD complaints about imports in Canada. Please be sure to follow the import guidelines, including special import accounts, and please be sure to check your work and fix errors. Latest issue appears to be a large broken water polygon. Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca Steve, thanks. I've moved the warning to a more prominent place, to the summary at the top. Otherwise (new) readers might miss it too easily. Frank ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Copyright violation?
Just noticed that user:postmaster added some data from source city of hamilton property map http://map.hamilton.ca/InteractiveMaps/framesetup.asp;, obviously a newbie. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/10042572 Presumably this is a copyright violation? ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Copyright violation?
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote: Just noticed that user:postmaster added some data from source city of hamilton property map http://map.hamilton.ca/InteractiveMaps/framesetup.asp;, obviously a newbie. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/10042572 Presumably this is a copyright violation? Thank you, Andrew. I've sent a note to the new user and invited them to the open house this weekend. :-) ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints
Bonjour Richard and all, I might not be totally unbiased !-) but I don't agree with Richard here. Actually, since I've imported Canvec data for my neighbourhood, I have been able to update/add/remove a lot of features/details that are not available in any other map. Stop sign, lights, biking/pedestrian track and trail, steps, the nice coffee shop near the bus stop were not there if instead I had mapped feature that can be found everywhere (roads, water or railways). I'm not on the impression that the community is disappearing, I'm on the impression the community is changing. 2-3 years ago, most of the traffic on talk-ca was about developing tools to import data! Since Canvec data is available, that part of the traffic is not there anymore (until this weekend !-) You are right suggesting that osm community have grown because of the white spots on the map (SuperMapper). I would use the same example to argue that the community can now grow faster because the map is not white anymore because of the syndrome de la page blanche (Writer's block) About resulting data quality, it can be lower if an import is done where data already exists and the integration not done properly. However, I've seen - and I'm pretty sure many of you have seen - areas where the quality is poor even if there were no import. I think there is a place for importing and that writing appropriate procedure in the wiki - as suggested - would do the job to advise newbie about the complexity of importing data. Best regards, Daniel -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: December-02-11 16:07 To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Connors, Bernie (SNB) bernie.conn...@snb.ca wrote: Richard, Do you have a link to Import Guidelines that are specific to Canvec data? Sure. All imports should comply with the OSM import guidelines. My preference is that we do not import at all. We should treat outside sources the way we treat aerial imagery. This is a deliberately provocative statement. More below. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines The automated edit guidelines apply to imports, and to any mass / bulk edit. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct Now, on imports. I'm very grateful that NRCan has been generous and allowed us to include Canadian government data in OSM. It's even better that folks at NRCan participate in the OSM community. This is not about them, and they are not at fault. It is my opinion that imports delay or end the growth of local OSM communities at the expense of some data is better than perfect data. How? In the old days, a person might hear of OSM, look at the map and see that their neighbourhood is a blank spot on the map. That motivated them to map their neighbourhood, and boom all of a sudden that new mapper is $SuperMapper. Pick one of the old-timers on the talk@ list for a value for $SuperMapper. Today, a new mapper might look at rural Ontario, and think, Ah, all the roads are there. No need for me to map. And we have missed the opportunity to create a new SuperMapper. So this might be true of any place, where mappers have mapped from a distance. Why pick on imports? Imports are too fast and too easy. That leads to insufficient care being applied to each node and way. When we map from aerial imagery we carefully consider each node placed on each way, because we have to do them all one by one, based on what we interpret from the imagery. That's good. With an import, we might look at the 20 km**2 and check a few spots, but it is not possible to give the same attention to each and every node that we would as we draw them by hand. So we get broken imports because we don't pay enough attention. Our tools have improved over the last seven years to reduce the gross errors that we make with imports but that is no substitute for the individual care and attention that we give to the nodes and ways we create through hard(er) work. So imports are worse than referring to an external source like tracing aerial imagery. The quality is lower. And the result can prevent or dissuade new mappers from joining OSM. In the alternative universe, where we did not import, new mappers found their neighbourhoods as blank spots and started mapping. In that alternative universe talk-ca has 10X or 100X readers. Every town in Canada has one or more local mappers. today, we might say every city in Canada has one or more mappers. In ten years we might have a mapper in every town. In that alternate universe, ten years from now, perhaps there is a mapper in every Canadian village. Is there a difference? Yes. We want a mapper on every block. Imagine, if a coffee shop around the corner changes name, how long would it take to update in OSM with a mapper on every block? Not long is the answer. With only one or more mappers in the nearest city, OSM will
Re: [Talk-ca] import complaints
We have to accept that OSM it is not a static project. For those discoverers that want to start from a blank sheet, there are still so many thematics to look for, and see how we can bring the information in OSM, how we can render it. For me, what it is interesting in OSM, it is all the space we have for innovation. Mappers and developpers brings constantly new projects, new developments that enthousiasm me. Like for various aspect of Openstreetmap, it is surely a challenge to update Canvec data in OSM. It is not easy. We should probably look at ways to facilitate it. But, I agree with Daniel that Canvec brings very good information. The OSM project is now more mature. It is becoming more complex, and we should adapt to it. Our objective is to let people use geographic map of good quality, to provide geographic opendata covering various thematics. For example, I have traced hiking trails in the Estrie region. But there where blanks all around. A line in the middle of desert looks to me meaningfull. And now that Canvec data has been added, that OpencycleMap bring elevation data, my thematic map of hiking trails looks very colorfull. Thanks to those who make the effort to bring Canvec in and develop, render the map in various ways. And now we can really start to build over that map. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
