[Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi all,

I wanted to give you a heads up that my colleagues on the Telenav map team
are starting work on adding turn restrictions in Toronto, Montréal, and
later on also Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary. We are using OpenStreetView
and Mapillary as sources. If you have any questions or concerns, please
reach out to me and we will address it right away.

For conditional (time-restricted) turn restrictions, we intend to use the
schema described in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions. We encounter a
more complex mapping of conditional turn restrictions sometimes, where
mappers have used day_on / day_off and hour_on / hour_off. This is uncommon
and as far as I know not recommended for mapping time-restricted turn
restrictions. If we encounter these, our proposal would be to remove these
tags and if necessary replace them with the preferred scheme as described
on the wiki. Opinions?

Best,
Martijn
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions

[Mike Boos]

Hello

Waterloo Region is in the process of building a light rail system. This has
meant a lot of streets are being reconstructed and changed, and now that
large portions of the line are completed, there are lots of changes that
will need to be made to map what is the largest infrastructure project
local governments here have undertaken.

There are similarities to some other Canadian light rail and streetcar
systems (with dedicated rights of way), but also some unique features which
I'd like to get some advice about how to map.

Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from
centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections. (A
by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does
anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side of
the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look messy.

There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight
corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with the
heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However, the
use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train
to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be
operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of
'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the dominant
use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even
though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This
section is also largely complete.)

Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station
platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as
railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some
discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case in
Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131

Thanks
Mike

-- 
Mike Boos
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] The Statistics Canada Project

[James]

I'm the one running the tasking manager.

On Oct 17, 2016 9:08 PM, "AJ Ashton"  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for the writeup. I think this is the first post that's made it
> fully clear what is going on. As I was re-reading the previous StatCan
> thread earlier today I seemed to be missing something - now I guess it was
> context available to those who attended in-person meetings. I don't think
> it was even clear to the list until now how much in-person community
> discussion has been happening.
>
> Basically the issue is that all the online discussion about this looks to
> have been about the StatCan crowdsourcing half of the project and none at
> all about the building import half. I didn't pay too much attention to the
> original StatCan thread at the time because it so clearly sounded like a
> local mapping project with no large-scale import component.
>
> Unfortunately I no longer live in Ottawa and couldn't have made it to the
> meetings. However I lived there for many years, have done a lot of mapping
> there, and have a continued interest in the area. I would still like to see
> the the building import happen and even help out where I can. But I think
> it's important to do more planning and discussion on this list and the
> imports list, and to take things in smaller and more manageable chunks.
>
> I guess the next step would be to continue on a proper path to import the
> buildings per the guidelines per http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/
> wiki/Import/Guidelines . This would include:
>
> - Wiki documentation of the where the data is, what it contains & its
> license / permissions
> - A plan to conflate with existing data - preserving history, keeping
> existing attributes, and merging addresses onto buildings where possible
> before the data is uploaded
> - A specific plan for uploading the data. Eg how the data will be divided
> up into chunks and step-by-step instructions for JOSM, etc. A task server
> was mentioned several times - who is running this and how can others
> participate?
> - A proper review on the imports mailing list
>
> I don't necessarily agree with every single rule in the import guidelines,
> but they are what the community has decided on and I think for the most
> part they help avoid the kinds of issues I had with deleted and duplicated
> data in Ottawa.
>
> --
>   AJ Ashton
>   a...@ajashton.ca
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] The Statistics Canada Project

[AJ Ashton]

Hi John,

Thanks for the writeup. I think this is the first post that's made it
fully clear what is going on. As I was re-reading the previous StatCan
thread earlier today I seemed to be missing something - now I guess it
was context available to those who attended in-person meetings. I don't
think it was even clear to the list until now how much in-person
community discussion has been happening.

Basically the issue is that all the online discussion about this looks
to have been about the StatCan crowdsourcing half of the project and
none at all about the building import half. I didn't pay too much
attention to the original StatCan thread at the time because it so
clearly sounded like a local mapping project with no large-scale import
component.

Unfortunately I no longer live in Ottawa and couldn't have made it to
the meetings. However I lived there for many years, have done a lot of
mapping there, and have a continued interest in the area.  I would still
like to see the the building import happen and even help out where I
can. But I think it's important to do more planning and discussion on
this list and the imports list, and to  take things in smaller and more
manageable chunks.

I guess the next step would be to continue on a proper path to import
the buildings per the guidelines per
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines . This would
include:

- Wiki documentation of the where the data is, what it contains & its
  license / permissions
- A plan to conflate with existing data - preserving history, keeping
  existing attributes, and merging addresses onto buildings where
  possible before the data is uploaded
- A specific plan for uploading the data. Eg how the data will be
  divided up into chunks and step-by-step instructions for JOSM, etc. A
  task server was mentioned several times - who is running this and how
  can others participate?
- A proper review on the imports mailing list

I don't necessarily agree with every single rule in the import
guidelines, but they are what the community has decided on and I think
for the most part they help avoid the kinds of issues I had with deleted
and duplicated data in Ottawa.

--
  AJ Ashton
  a...@ajashton.ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] The Statistics Canada Project

[john whelan]

First I'm not running it but I used to work there before I retired and have
since have been bribed with a mug of coffee to provide some input so I
think have an understanding of what they are trying to do.

Essentially they are interested in adding details to non-residential
buildings in Ottawa / Gatineau.  The sort of details they are after in my
mind will require a physical mapper to look at the building.  This is
traditional OpenStreetMap mapping, nothing else.  The intent is not to wave
a magic wand and pour all sorts of data into OpenStreetMap.

However they would like some reassurance of completeness.  Have we mapped
all the buildings?

The buildings they are interested in probably number around 5,000 and many
/ most are in the map already although they do not have all the tags Stats
Canada would like. I can't remember if the colour of the door was one but
they are of that type.

After a conversation between Stats Canada and The City of Ottawa with some
other people involved a file containing all the buildings in Ottawa was
identified.

The City of Ottawa agreed to make this available.  By the time it was made
available the City of Ottawa had changed its Open Data license, the process
took three years by the way to one which is for all practical purposes the
same as the Federal Government's Open Data portal.   My understanding is
the that file is currently available on one of the City of Ottawa's servers
but I may be wrong.  The original intention was it would be made available
on the Treasury Board's Open Data web site which is normally considered to
be compatible with OpenStreetMap's .odbl license.  I'm not quite certain if
it has made its way to the Federal Government's Open Data Portal yet but
that was the intention and I don't think that has changed.

There will always be different points of view about whether or not a
particular Open Data license is compatible with OpenStreetMap but I think
in this case considerable effort and research was made to ensure the
licensing was correct.  I distinctly recall murmurings of frustration being
heard at Stats Canada about licensing on more than one occasion.

There have been a number of meetings / discussions, four or five I think,
with the local mappers that were open to all.  A group physically meets up
at the Happy Goat in Ottawa from time to time.  I don't think AJ Ashton nor
Stewart Downs were amongst them but they were invited.  The local group is
hosting a tile whatever to cover Ottawa in support of this project.  I
think I was at a meeting at a Starbucks where there was a discussion by
mappers about the building import and the best process to use to bring in
the building outlines, but at all the meetings to my knowledge there was
mention that in order to avoid the drawing odd shaped buildings in iD and
to ensure that all the buildings were known about there would be use of
Open Data in support of the project.

There has been some discussion in talk-ca.

Statistics Canada have been talking to people in Brussels at SOTM and also
at the American OSM SOTM.

Within the wider OSM community there has been some discussion and much
interest.

This is the first time Statistics Canada has been involved with something
of this nature and they are still learning.  They are trying to work with
the local mapping community but internally they also have some target dates
they would like to meet.

The import was done by the local community.

I think what should have happened is the intention of the import should
have been raised as a courtesy with the import discussion forum but having
seen their input about CANVEC data being imported they seem to have a less
than helpful reputation which is unfortunate.

Stats Canada was hoping to announce the project today and I think they now
have done so.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/crowdsourcing

So it may have been tempting to add a few buildings before they started.

It should have been done using import OSM userids.

It should have been done carefully only importing where there were no
existing buildings.  This takes a lot longer and for an import of this size
the temptation would probably be to import the more rural areas where fewer
buildings are mapped and be much more careful in the city centre.

So currently the Statistics Canada project is now live and they are asking
people to add data or rather tags to existing buildings and there are quite
a few existing buildings on the map in Ottawa that can be worked on
already.  This is slightly different than using iD to draw buildings which
has led to some rather strange shaped buildings on the map.  I'm hoping
OpenStreetMap will gain more than a few new mappers with this initiative
and for that reason alone it is well worth supporting.

By the way does anyone have any input about how local local is?  It is
impossible to contact and gain consensus of everyone who has ever mapped in
Ottawa or Gatineau.  A reasonable attempt was made to reach out to local
mappers.

Does anyone 

Re: [Talk-ca] Avoiding data redundancy

[john whelan]

Orleans is one where the postal address does not match the municipal one.
Orleans I'd a figment of Canada Post's imagination.

Cheerio John

On 17 Oct 2016 3:03 pm, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> Hi Jamie,
>
> > Seeing as there are boundary polygons for Ottawa, Ontario and Canada. I
> > think to reduce data redundancy these should be removed.
>
> I agree, but there are others who don't. I know that andrewpmk uses city
> and province tags as progress markers. There's also the potential
> utility where municipal addresses don't match postal ones (such as
> Toronto ≠ Scarborough).
>
> cheers,
>  Stewart
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Frederik Ramm]

Denis,

On 10/17/2016 11:43 PM, Denis Carriere wrote:
> At least this will be fixed... can you please make sure that this revert
> is at least finished properly without thousands of warnings. I don't
> want to be cleaning up a poor revert for days.

The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Pierre Béland]

James
Dans JOSM la fonction Remplacer la géométrie permet de retracer rapidement et 
de conserver l'historique
Installer UtilsPlugin2 d'abord je crois.

1. Raccourci B (building) je trace l'immeuble 2. Je clique sur ancienne 
version, ctrl+clic nouvelle version de l'immeuble
3. Raccourci Ctrl-Maj-G (ou Menu Plus d'outils / Remplacer la géométrie) pour 
Remplacer la géométrie.
  
Pierre 


  De : James 
 À : Stewart C. Russell  
Cc : Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
 Envoyé le : lundi 17 octobre 2016 17h07
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses
   
>From Rps333 in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42876740:

This is part of the Stats Canada Open data project. And has been discussed on 
Talk:ca It has received OSM Ottawa community approval. OSM Ottawa has been 
planning on adding the build for 3 months now. We have a dedicated Task sever. 
FYI, every building I added, I have tried to confirm with Bing imagery if it 
makes sense. If there was a build there pick the best outline City of Ottawa or 
Bing/ NRCan data.

I have also tried to move the address points to inside the building.

Ref the missing building levels. I copied the new outline to the school 
multipolygon and must have missed coping the building level.

My mistake.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Stewart C. Russell  wrote:

On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
>
> We are using that data.

You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013- November/005906.html

You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
Canada Ottawa data published, please?

You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
Please stop.

 Stewart



__ _
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk-ca




-- 
外に遊びに行こう！
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


   ___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Denis,

Am 17.10.2016 um 23:22 schrieb Denis Carriere:
> *(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script
> [1] created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes
> within a small section of Ottawa [2].
> 
> Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've 
> introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is
> near impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.
> 
> If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and
> not corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.
> 
> Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your
> poor revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??

The revert has not been finished yet (the changeset is still open) and
its necessary first to delete all created relations, then all created
ways and, as a last step, all created nodes.

It is a usual effect that reverting huge bulk uploads takes hours.

Best regards

Michael



- -- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt.
(Mailinglisten ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
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=6HD7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

You'd think someone working on the DWG would know how to revert a changeset
properly. This is even worse than when there were a few duplicated
addresses.

On Oct 17, 2016 5:23 PM, "Denis Carriere"  wrote:

> Ok now things are even worse!
>
> *(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script [1]
> created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes within a
> small section of Ottawa [2].
>
> Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've
> introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is near
> impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.
>
> If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and not
> corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.
>
> Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your poor
> revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??
>
> [0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42964959
> [1]: https://github.com/woodpeck/osm-revert-scripts
> [2]: http://127.0.0.1:8111/load_and_zoom?left=-75.67383=
> 45.36758=-75.65186=45.38302
>
> *~~*
> *Denis Carriere*
> *GIS Software & Systems Specialist*
>
> *Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
> *OSM: DenisCarriere *
> GitHub: DenisCarriere 
> Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
>> > All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
>> > mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
>> > mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.
>>
>> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
>> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
>> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
>> about the matter.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Denis Carriere]

Ok now things are even worse!

*(Frederik Ramm) *just did a mass revert [0] with his revert script [1]
created in 2009 and now we have 20,000+ warnings of empty nodes within a
small section of Ottawa [2].

Not only did *(Frederik Ramm) *undo James commits, but now you've
introduced over 100,000+ warnings scattered across Ottawa which is near
impossible to fix unless we revert the revert.

If you're going to undo someone's commits, at least do it right and not
corrupt the OSM data for the Ottawa community.

Please remove all of the empty nodes you've just created from your poor
revert, have you even looked at what you reverted??

[0]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42964959
[1]: https://github.com/woodpeck/osm-revert-scripts
[2]: http://127.0.0.1:8111/load_and_zoom?left=-75.67383;
bottom=45.36758=-75.65186=45.38302

*~~*
*Denis Carriere*
*GIS Software & Systems Specialist*

*Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
*OSM: DenisCarriere *
GitHub: DenisCarriere 
Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
> > All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
> > mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
> > mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.
>
> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> about the matter.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

>From Rps333 in changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42876740:

This is part of the Stats Canada Open data project. And has been discussed
on Talk:ca It has received OSM Ottawa community approval. OSM Ottawa has
been planning on adding the build for 3 months now. We have a dedicated
Task sever. FYI, every building I added, I have tried to confirm with Bing
imagery if it makes sense. If there was a build there pick the best outline
City of Ottawa or Bing/ NRCan data.

I have also tried to move the address points to inside the building.

Ref the missing building levels. I copied the new outline to the school
multipolygon and must have missed coping the building level.

My mistake.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Stewart C. Russell 
wrote:

> On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> > Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> > and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> > Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
> >
> > We are using that data.
>
> You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
> requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013-
> November/005906.html
>
> You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
> ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
> Canada Ottawa data published, please?
>
> You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
> this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
> Please stop.
>
>  Stewart
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>



-- 
外に遊びに行こう！
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada, Launching!

[Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN)]

Hello,

We are now live and launching! Thanks everyone for your help and let's see how 
this goes!

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/crowdsourcing

Bonjour,

Nous sommes en ligne! Le projet est lancé!

Merci à tous pour votre aide et voyons comment ça se déroulera !

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/fra/approcheparticipative


Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD

Unit head | Chef de sous-section
Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d'exploration et intégration 
de données (LEID)
Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur les 
entreprises
Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
(343) 998-3004

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-10-17 03:33 PM, James wrote:
> Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
> and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
> Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.
> 
> We are using that data.

You have not confirmed to this list here that the third-party clearance
requirement of the data has been met. This is required for any OGL data:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2013-November/005906.html

You are not doing this as part of the Stats Canada import, as no go
ahead, discussion or agreement has been made here. Where is the Stats
Canada Ottawa data published, please?

You are doing these imports under your own user names. You *know* that
this is against the guidelines. You've received two blocks already.
Please stop.

 Stewart



___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

Stewart, that's where you are wrong. Ottawa has supplied data(footprints
and address) to Stats Can to import into OSM for their project under the
Canada Open Gov License so there would be no issues with licensing.

We are using that data.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Stewart C. Russell 
wrote:

> Hi Frederik,
>
> > Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> > it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> > don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> > about the matter.
>
> There are a *lot* more import changesets by Jamie, aka LogicalViolinist.
> All of them seem to be importing City of Ottawa open data. This is
> separate from any collaboration with Statistics Canada, as it does not
> include the fields that they require. We're still not clear that the
> city's building and address data meets the third party clearance
> requirement that OGL creates.
>
> There also a mismatch between Ottawa buildings and address points. If
> you look around here - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/446215268 -
> there are duplicated address nodes, and some outside building outlines.
>
> I also have my suspicions that changesets such as 42788839 -
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42788839 (not by
> LogicalViolinist, either) are imports. Identical changeset comments to
> LogicalViolinist's import ones, and address nodes with source=Bing? Hmm.
>
> Please, if folks are going to import stuff, play by the rules. Every bad
> import makes the possibility of good imports much harder.
>
> cheers,
>  Stewart
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>



-- 
外に遊びに行こう！
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

Hi Frederik,

> Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
> it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
> don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
> about the matter.

There are a *lot* more import changesets by Jamie, aka LogicalViolinist.
All of them seem to be importing City of Ottawa open data. This is
separate from any collaboration with Statistics Canada, as it does not
include the fields that they require. We're still not clear that the
city's building and address data meets the third party clearance
requirement that OGL creates.

There also a mismatch between Ottawa buildings and address points. If
you look around here - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/446215268 -
there are duplicated address nodes, and some outside building outlines.

I also have my suspicions that changesets such as 42788839 -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42788839 (not by
LogicalViolinist, either) are imports. Identical changeset comments to
LogicalViolinist's import ones, and address nodes with source=Bing? Hmm.

Please, if folks are going to import stuff, play by the rules. Every bad
import makes the possibility of good imports much harder.

cheers,
 Stewart



___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Avoiding data redundancy

[Stewart C. Russell]

Hi Jamie,

> Seeing as there are boundary polygons for Ottawa, Ontario and Canada. I
> think to reduce data redundancy these should be removed.

I agree, but there are others who don't. I know that andrewpmk uses city
and province tags as progress markers. There's also the potential
utility where municipal addresses don't match postal ones (such as
Toronto ≠ Scarborough).

cheers,
 Stewart

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 17.10.2016 um 19:20 schrieb Michael Reichert:
> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
> start a discussion.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065

The second user block (now for three hours):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1066

reason: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42965430 and similar
changesets

Best regards

Michael

-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/17/2016 07:49 PM, AJ Ashton wrote:
> All of this sounds like they were planning one something like an online
> mapping party, not an import of government data. Certainly there is no
> mention that all existing buildings in Ottawa would be wiped out first.

Which is why I'm reverting this import (and the deletions that went with
it) now. Not because we shouldn't ever import the data, but because I
don't want a fait accompli to stand in the way of a serious discussion
about the matter.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi James,

Am 17.10.2016 um 19:37 schrieb James:
> Like this one Kevin?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html
> 
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html
> 
> Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds

I have been subscribed to this mailing list for about two months and saw
that there was a discussion on this mailing list but I cannot find a
discussion on *Imports* mailing list.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Discuss_your_proposed_import
says
> Discuss your import on the impo...@openstreetmap.org mailing list and
> with appropriate local communities.

That's not the only reason why this import is bad. See my other posting
for all the other reasons.

Best regards

Michael


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Kevin Farrugia]

Yup, those ones James. Sorry, I'm in something right now so I can't Google.
:P

On Oct 17, 2016 1:37 PM, "James"  wrote:

> Like this one Kevin?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html
>
> or this one?
> https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html
>
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html
>
> or this one?
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html
>
> Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kevin Farrugia 
> wrote:
>
>> Afternoon,
>>
>> I'm not part of the import, but it's been discussed over the past several
>> months as a project by Statistics Canada. You'll be able to see the
>> discussions start in the summer. I'm on my phone right now so I haven't
>> pulled up the archive to look for links (sorry).
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2016 1:22 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi AJ,
>>>
>>> Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
>>> > I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
>>> > addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
>>> > "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
>>> > anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
>>> > wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
>>> > changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
>>> > which again has few details and does not sound like an import
>>> > ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
>>> >
>>> > [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
>>> > [2]:
>>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowds
>>> ourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada
>>>
>>> Thank you for highlighting it.
>>>
>>> In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
>>> a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
>>> mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
>>> has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742
>>>
>>> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
>>> start a discussion.
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>>> ausgenommen)
>>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-ca mailing list
>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 外に遊びに行こう！
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[James]

Like this one Kevin?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-July/007034.html

or this one?
https://www.mail-archive.com/talk-ca@openstreetmap.org/msg07024.html

or this one?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007151.html

or this one?
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-August/007068.html

Tired of googling, but it's the ones I found in a couple of seconds

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Kevin Farrugia 
wrote:

> Afternoon,
>
> I'm not part of the import, but it's been discussed over the past several
> months as a project by Statistics Canada. You'll be able to see the
> discussions start in the summer. I'm on my phone right now so I haven't
> pulled up the archive to look for links (sorry).
>
> On Oct 17, 2016 1:22 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:
>
>> Hi AJ,
>>
>> Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
>> > I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
>> > addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
>> > "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
>> > anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
>> > wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
>> > changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
>> > which again has few details and does not sound like an import
>> > ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
>> >
>> > [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
>> > [2]:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowds
>> ourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada
>>
>> Thank you for highlighting it.
>>
>> In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
>> a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
>> mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
>> has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742
>>
>> I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
>> start a discussion.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>> ausgenommen)
>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>


-- 
外に遊びに行こう！
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Avoiding data redundancy

[Pierre Béland]

Bonjour James
C'est une excellente idée.  

J'ai corrigé les adresses au sud de Montréal ce qui permet maintenant de faire 
une recherche adresse. OSM Inspector (OSMI) est très utile aussi pour vérifier 
que les adresses sont codées correctement, identifier celles a corriger.  Il y 
a aussi une couchee OSMI dans JOSM. 

L'algorithme adresse de Nominatim cherche une rue à proximité avec exactement 
le même nom (attention minuscules, majuscules, espaces, tirets, accents etc) 
exemplenode adresseaddr:street=Avenue de Gentillyway=* a proximité
name=Avenue de Gentilly
voir http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?lon=8.3902=49.0094=15

Il serait aussi très important d'importer les polygones de limites 
administratives des municipalités. Pour le Québec, Ressources naturelles Canada 
offre maintenant ces données.
Mais attention, l'import de telles données doit être fait par des contributeurs 
expérimentés connaissant bien les relations de limites administratives. On 
devrait je pense démarrer une page wiki et ré-activer ce projet.
  
Pierre 


  De : James 
 À : Talk-CA OpenStreetMap  
 Envoyé le : lundi 17 octobre 2016 12h31
 Objet : [Talk-ca] Avoiding data redundancy
   
I've been looking into data in Ottawa(this is one of many cities that do this) 
and a lot of addresses/buildings have "addr:city" and I even get 
"addr:province" and "addr:country". 

Seeing as there are boundary polygons for Ottawa, Ontario and Canada. I think 
to reduce data redundancy these should be removed. Of course I am not talking 
about villages like Kuujjuaq where there isn't a administrative border, but in 
cities that do have one.

What do you think?

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


   ___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

Hi AJ,

Am 17.10.2016 um 18:59 schrieb AJ Ashton:
> I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
> addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
> "Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
> anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
> wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
> changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
> which again has few details and does not sound like an import
> ("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").
> 
> [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
> [2]:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowdsourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada

Thank you for highlighting it.

In addition to the lacking documentation, LogicalViolinist neither uses
a dedicated account nor the import has been discussed at the Imports
mailing list (I had a look at the subjects of the last six months). He
has been informed about the Import Guideline on August 29, 2016.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41776742

I have asked a DWG member to block him to stop the ongoing import and
start a discussion.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1065

Best regards

Michael





-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[AJ Ashton]

I haven't seen any substantial discussion about the Ottawa buildings &
addresses import anywhere. I did see the thread a number of weeks back,
"Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada," but I didn't see
anything discussed that sounds like the planning of a mass import. The
wiki page linked from the discussion [0] is completely empty. From a
changeset discussion I was pointed to another section of the wiki [2]
which again has few details and does not sound like an import
("...inviting contributors to crowdsource information on buildings").

[1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ottawa_Gatineau_Buildings
[2]:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Crowdsourcing_buildings_with_Statistics_Canada

What has actually happened is most (or all?) of the existing buildings
in Ottawa were deleted, and then replaced by imported data. For example
changeset 42699159 [3] deleted hundreds of buildings and addresses I had
mapped in my former home of Stittsville. Changeset 42699460 [4] replaced
everything with City of Ottawa data.

[3]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42699159/
[4]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42699460/

The quality of the imported shapes seems fine and I have nothing against
building imports in principle. I just wish existing data could have been
updated or left alone - I don't see a substantial difference between
what I had traced from Bing and the import except for an offset of
perhaps a few meters. Although I saw someone noted on IRC that in
several cases existing properties such as building:levels tags were
lost; this is more concerning.

In addition to building footprints, addresses are also being imported.
This data is a little more problematic and the importers seem to be
taking a "import now, fix later" approach. Example: changeset 42633517
[5] added over 20 thousand address nodes that were clearly not
quality-checked. Addresses are being imported as points when they could
be attached to buildings, and sometimes address points are doubled,
tripled, or even quadrupled [6].

[5]: https://osmcha.mapbox.com/42633517/
[6]: Eg this area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.26652/-75.93753

Could the organizers of this import point me to any further mailing list
discussions or wiki pages I might have missed? Can we talk about why the
clearcut approach to existing data was taken, and why the address data
was not cleaned up *before* import?

(The changesets I linked to may make it look like I am specifically
calling out user LogicalViolinist, but the import was a group effort by
a number of users. LogicalViolinist just happens to have covered the
part of Ottawa I am most familiar with.)

-- 
  AJ Ashton
  a...@ajashton.ca

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] Avoiding data redundancy

[James]

I've been looking into data in Ottawa(this is one of many cities that do
this) and a lot of addresses/buildings have "addr:city" and I even get
"addr:province" and "addr:country".

Seeing as there are boundary polygons for Ottawa, Ontario and Canada. I
think to reduce data redundancy these should be removed. Of course I am not
talking about villages like Kuujjuaq where there isn't a administrative
border, but in cities that do have one.

What do you think?
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca