Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

I got Bjenk from Stats Can to get a statement from the city of Ottawa
Monday to explicitly use the data in OSM. Licensing is compatible in terms
of OGL-CA and ODBL, but if a statement allows the import to proceed we will
get it even though is seems bureaucratic more than a legal issue

Have a nice weekend

On Jan 20, 2017 9:56 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:

> Essentially OSM is not well set up to handle these sort of issues.
> Normally interpretations are base on custom and practice.
>
> The wording is slightly different between the two licences.  OSM decision
> making for local matters is normally left to local mappers.
>
> So the decision to allow the import is an Ottawa mapper decision but
> whether the licenses are compatible is not.
>
> There is and has been minor imports of Open Data in Ottawa for some time.
> The bus stops for example.  So custom and practice say if the bus stop
> import was permitted then data from the same source under the same licence
> should also be permitted.
>
> It's a little like dealing with the native people of Canada.  There are
> 500,000 of them with 500,000 different opinions.  Trying to reach an
> agreement is very difficult.
>
> Realistically imports happen in OSM everyday.  They aren't always
> announced in talk-ca first.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 20 Jan 2017 9:01 pm, "James"  wrote:
>
>> Is OGL-CA not compatible with osm?
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2017 8:17 PM, "Paul Norman"  wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/20/2017 3:22 PM, James wrote:
>>>
>>> Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Im
>>> port/Plan#Permission
>>>
>>> That says Ottawa gave some data to Stats Canada in 2016, not that their
>>> data can be reused under the ODbL. I've sent an email to them asking for
>>> permission. We need this because we're getting the data directly from them.
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[john whelan]

Essentially OSM is not well set up to handle these sort of issues.
Normally interpretations are base on custom and practice.

The wording is slightly different between the two licences.  OSM decision
making for local matters is normally left to local mappers.

So the decision to allow the import is an Ottawa mapper decision but
whether the licenses are compatible is not.

There is and has been minor imports of Open Data in Ottawa for some time.
The bus stops for example.  So custom and practice say if the bus stop
import was permitted then data from the same source under the same licence
should also be permitted.

It's a little like dealing with the native people of Canada.  There are
500,000 of them with 500,000 different opinions.  Trying to reach an
agreement is very difficult.

Realistically imports happen in OSM everyday.  They aren't always announced
in talk-ca first.

Cheerio John

On 20 Jan 2017 9:01 pm, "James"  wrote:

> Is OGL-CA not compatible with osm?
>
> On Jan 20, 2017 8:17 PM, "Paul Norman"  wrote:
>
>> On 1/20/2017 3:22 PM, James wrote:
>>
>> Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/
>> Import/Plan#Permission
>>
>> That says Ottawa gave some data to Stats Canada in 2016, not that their
>> data can be reused under the ODbL. I've sent an email to them asking for
>> permission. We need this because we're getting the data directly from them.
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

Is OGL-CA not compatible with osm?

On Jan 20, 2017 8:17 PM, "Paul Norman"  wrote:

> On 1/20/2017 3:22 PM, James wrote:
>
> Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:
> Ottawa/Import/Plan#Permission
>
> That says Ottawa gave some data to Stats Canada in 2016, not that their
> data can be reused under the ODbL. I've sent an email to them asking for
> permission. We need this because we're getting the data directly from them.
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[john whelan]

Did you include permission for the bus stops as well?  They are from the
same source and the same licence.  I think I might have included one pitch
sport soccer.  The pitch was mapped but the sport soccer was I must confess
taken from their open data source.

Thanks John

On 20 Jan 2017 8:17 pm, "Paul Norman"  wrote:

> On 1/20/2017 3:22 PM, James wrote:
>
> Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:
> Ottawa/Import/Plan#Permission
>
> That says Ottawa gave some data to Stats Canada in 2016, not that their
> data can be reused under the ODbL. I've sent an email to them asking for
> permission. We need this because we're getting the data directly from them.
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[Paul Norman]

On 1/20/2017 3:22 PM, James wrote:

Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Permission

That says Ottawa gave some data to Stats Canada in 2016, not that their 
data can be reused under the ODbL. I've sent an email to them asking for 
permission. We need this because we're getting the data directly from them.
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

Thats old. Check
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Permission


On Jan 20, 2017 5:45 PM, "Paul Norman"  wrote:

> On 1/20/2017 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>
>
>
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa
> on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>
>
>
> Link:
>
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>
>
> Is there a statement anywhere from Ottawa saying that their license is
> compatible with the ODbL? All I can find is https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission which seems to be about
> their previous license.
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

Old link to an old wiki. Please see:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Permission

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:

> On 1/20/2017 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>
>
>
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa
> on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>
>
>
> Link:
>
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>
>
> Is there a statement anywhere from Ottawa saying that their license is
> compatible with the ODbL? All I can find is https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission which seems to be about
> their previous license.
>
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>
>


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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[john whelan]

We spent four years working with Treasury Board and Ottawa on the Open Data
Licence and they took extensive consultations. Given four lawyers I'm sure
one will say it isn't compatible but the feeling at Treasury Board was it
is and the Ottawa license is based on the TB license.  This particular data
set has been reviewed by a City of Ottawa lawyer and my impression was they
were comfortable.  That was one reason it took so long to get it formally
released.

It some ways this has become a philosophical discussion should Open Street
Map accept anything that has been done with a handheld GPS.  There are many
who think this is the correct way forward.  However there are others such
as myself who think that people who use the map should be considered.  I
certainly feel there is value in having the Ottawa Bus stops in.

There are many instances in OSM of imported data, a number of American
cities have their building outlines in for example.  I don't think this is
particularly different.  We might discuss if it adds value to the map but
that one is very difficult.  Where do you draw the line.  I'm not very
interested in rivers does that mean they should not be mapped by anyone?

In Africa I see all sorts of imported data some of very dubious quality.
Sometimes it does seem to me that there is one rule for Ottawa mappers and
quite another for the rest of OSM.

Overall I think Stats will introduce a number of new mappers.  They are
doing some interesting things by taking the .OSM file and feeding it into
R, a statistical package. R.org in case anyone is interested in looking it
up.  I've seen the first results and they look interesting.  I've had
feedback from someone in the equivalent of CIDA in Germany that they think
it might well be a very effective low cost tool for Town Planning in Africa.

My biggest concern is how the import is handled and merged with existing
data.  I think these concerns have been addressed on paper but only time
will tell exactly how it will unfold.

Cheerio John

On 20 January 2017 at 17:44, Paul Norman  wrote:

> On 1/20/2017 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>
>
>
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa
> on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>
>
>
> Link:
>
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>
>
> Is there a statement anywhere from Ottawa saying that their license is
> compatible with the ODbL? All I can find is https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission which seems to be about
> their previous license.
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[Paul Norman]

On 1/20/2017 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) wrote:


Hello everyone,

Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 
325,000 buildings on their open data portal in support to the project 
with Statistics Canada and the OSM community.


We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of 
Ottawa on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing 
contribution.


Link:

http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings



Is there a statement anywhere from Ottawa saying that their license is 
compatible with the ODbL? All I can find is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission 
which seems to be about their previous license.
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

Found license link that works here:
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0


On Jan 20, 2017 4:55 PM, "James"  wrote:

> No we are not. The data license of Ottawa is compatible with ODBL, website
> link is borked, that is all.
>
> On Jan 20, 2017 4:50 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:
>
>> We aren't talking about removing all the bus stops in Ottawa again are we?
>>
>> I thought we'd been through the licensing issues before and for those of
>> us without cars knowing the bus stop number is extremely useful.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 20 January 2017 at 16:06, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>>
>>> The license link is broken, is it this one? http://ottawa.ca/en/city-
>>> hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0
>>>
>>> Martijn van Exel
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) <
>>> bjenk.ellef...@canada.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
>>> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
>>> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>>>
>>> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of
>>> Ottawa on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing
>>> contribution.
>>>
>>> Link:
>>> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD
>>>
>>> Unit head | Chef de sous-section
>>> Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d’exploration et
>>> intégration de données (LEID)
>>> Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur
>>> les entreprises
>>> Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
>>> (343) 998-3004
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

No we are not. The data license of Ottawa is compatible with ODBL, website
link is borked, that is all.

On Jan 20, 2017 4:50 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:

> We aren't talking about removing all the bus stops in Ottawa again are we?
>
> I thought we'd been through the licensing issues before and for those of
> us without cars knowing the bus stop number is extremely useful.
>
> Thanks
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 20 January 2017 at 16:06, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
>> The license link is broken, is it this one? http://ottawa.ca/en/city-
>> hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0
>>
>> Martijn van Exel
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) <
>> bjenk.ellef...@canada.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
>> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
>> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>>
>> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of
>> Ottawa on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing
>> contribution.
>>
>> Link:
>> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>>
>>
>>
>> Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD
>>
>> Unit head | Chef de sous-section
>> Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d’exploration et
>> intégration de données (LEID)
>> Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur
>> les entreprises
>> Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
>> (343) 998-3004
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[john whelan]

We aren't talking about removing all the bus stops in Ottawa again are we?

I thought we'd been through the licensing issues before and for those of us
without cars knowing the bus stop number is extremely useful.

Thanks

Cheerio John

On 20 January 2017 at 16:06, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> The license link is broken, is it this one? http://ottawa.ca/en/city-
> hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0
>
> Martijn van Exel
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) <
> bjenk.ellef...@canada.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa
> on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>
> Link:
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>
>
>
> Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD
>
> Unit head | Chef de sous-section
> Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d’exploration et
> intégration de données (LEID)
> Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur les
> entreprises
> Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
> (343) 998-3004
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[James]

They might be updating the website, but the license is OGL-CA based:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Licence

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> The license link is broken, is it this one? http://ottawa.ca/en/city-
> hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0
>
> Martijn van Exel
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) <
> bjenk.ellef...@canada.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with
> Statistics Canada and the OSM community.
>
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa
> on this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>
> Link:
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings
>
>
>
> Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD
>
> Unit head | Chef de sous-section
> Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d’exploration et
> intégration de données (LEID)
> Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur les
> entreprises
> Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
> (343) 998-3004
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[Martijn van Exel]

The license link is broken, is it this one? 
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/get-know-your-city/open-data#open-data-licence-version-2-0
 


Martijn van Exel

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
>  
> Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000 
> buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with Statistics 
> Canada and the OSM community.
>  
> We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa on 
> this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.
>  
> Link: 
> http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD
>  
> Unit head | Chef de sous-section
> Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d’exploration et 
> intégration de données (LEID)
> Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur les 
> entreprises
> Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
> (343) 998-3004
>  
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[Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

[Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN)]

Hello everyone,

Big news, the City of Ottawa has released the footprint of over 325,000 
buildings on their open data portal in support to the project with Statistics 
Canada and the OSM community.

We are very grateful for the amazing collaboration with the City of Ottawa on 
this pilot project and are very pleased for this amazing contribution.

Link:
http://data.ottawa.ca/en/dataset/urban-buildings



Bjenk Ellefsen, PhD

Unit head | Chef de sous-section
Data Exploration and Integration Lab (DEIL) | Lab d'exploration et intégration 
de données (LEID)
Center for Special Business Projects | Centre des Projets Spéciaux sur les 
entreprises
Statistics Canada | Statistique Canada
(343) 998-3004

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Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] [Tagging] destination:street

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi Duane, 

Thanks. I had overlooked the examples page (even though I searched the OSM wiki 
for the exact term!)
I do appreciate the granularity of the destination:street tagging and would 
encourage the Telenav mappers to use it as well then, but we like to stick to 
conventions that are properly documented (not only in an example page). Since 
there is significant usage in N-America and some other regions [1], we could 
add it to the destination tag page [2]? 

My only issue with destination:street is that there’s still ambiguity when more 
than one street is on the sign, like here [3]. Would that then be 
destination:street=1300 So.;2100 So. and destination:ref=201 and 
destination:West Valley? The advantage of having a separate tag partly vanishes 
when you still need the semicolon separator?

Martijn van Exel

[1] http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/destination%3Astreet#map
 
[ 2] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination 

[3] http://openstreetcam.org/details/8230/168 


 

 
> On Jan 19, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Duane Gearhart  wrote:
> 
> Hey Martijn,
> 
> It looks correct to me - using the destination:street allows users to know if 
> the ramp is branching onto the specified street name vs. heading toward a 
> street name - examples are located here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Exit_Info#Road_name_Example 
> 
> 
> Mappers have been using in the US too:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ln4 
> 
> Here is an example way:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11502773#map=19/39.21853/-76.65894 
> 
> 
> You can see how it is used in the directions:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=mapzen_car=39.22079%2C-76.65959%3B39.22139%2C-76.65428
>  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Duane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> The Telenav mapping team noticed quite a few destination:street tags on 
> (mostly) motorway_link off-ramps in Canada. This is an undocumented sub-tag 
> of the destination tag so I am curious how it is being used and if there is 
> some sort of consensus that is documented somewhere else than the OSM wiki.
> 
> An Overpass query surfaced 1883 cases, http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ln2 
>   
> 
> Looking at a random one, http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34154734 
>  / 
> http://openstreetcam.org/details/10767/4194 
>  — I think in the US we would 
> just map this as destination=Carman Road;Iriquois and destination:ref=1
> 
> So my question is whether this is some relic of a past practice, or is this 
> actively used and encouraged mapping practice and if so, where should it be 
> documented? 
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details 
>  
> seems to be a good candidate.)
> 
> We’re happy to help improve these tags based on OSC / Mapillary data but I 
> wanted to make sure first that this is the way you all want to go.
> 
> Happy mapping,
> 
> Martijn van Exel
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Martijn van Exel]

In the US the prefix would typically be in the network tag, like network=US:US 
ref=89 for US highway 89, etc.
We have seen some of this in Canada as well. (CA:ON for Ontario highways etc.)
Martijn van Exel

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:57 AM, Paul Norman  wrote:
> 
> On 1/19/2017 5:00 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> Looking at a random one, http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34154734 / 
>> http://openstreetcam.org/details/10767/4194 — I think in the US we would 
>> just map this as destination=Carman Road;Iriquois and destination:ref=1
> 
> That is how it would be typically mapped in Canada in my experience, although 
> it might have a prefix to the ref.

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Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] destination:street

[Paul Norman]

On 1/19/2017 5:00 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
Looking at a random one, http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34154734 / 
http://openstreetcam.org/details/10767/4194 — I think in the US we 
would just map this as destination=Carman Road;Iriquois and 
destination:ref=1


That is how it would be typically mapped in Canada in my experience, 
although it might have a prefix to the ref.


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