Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Bernie Connors]

  ‎Matthew,      "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"‎ is a good one. I have driven through "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!" on my way from NB to Montreal. Growing up in NS I have always been intrigued by long French names in NB like St-Francois-de-Madawaska. I have lived, studied and worked in geomatics on NB since 1989. I find this discussion of St, Ste, Saint, and Sainte ‎to be a little esoteric. The engineer in me wants to lean toward standardization but the human in me recognizes that everyone can interpret a place name whether it is presented with a St / Saint or Ste / Sainte. However, St. John's, NL and Saint John, NB are a special case. One is always abbreviated and the other is not. Don't feel bad if you mix them up. Prince Charles confused the two while making a speech in Saint John, NB. I still remember the news clip on TV and the gasp from the NB audience when the prince said "St. John's" when he was referring Saint John, NB, while speaking in Saint John, NB! Despite the gasp Prince Charles survived and so will all of us OSM mappers despite our abbreviations. ;-)Bernie.Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.From: Matthew DarwinSent: Friday, February 16, 2018 8:14 PMTo: talk-ca@openstreetmap.orgSubject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
  

  
  
In my OSM map updates
to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from locality names,
I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other
abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to
be removed) matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the
prefix; if it doesn't, I will bring it back up here for review.
  
I occasionally get "Saint
John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so personally I do not
want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add to my
confusion.   :-)
What's your favourite
locality name in Canada?  I have to go with "Saint-Louis-du-Ha!
Ha!"


On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek
  Piórkowski wrote:


  With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most
everyone that Pine St is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the
correct unabbreviated Canadian English version. It is not clear
to me that "Saint Catharines" is the correct unabbreviated
version of the city's name. In fact it looks incorrect to me.
  


  



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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Feb 16, 2018, at 7:50 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson 
 wrote:
> It would seem to me that an official place name should take precedence over 
> OSM protocols.  If we expand the abbreviations (or contractions), of St. and 
> Ste., then are we not altering the official place name of the feature?
> 
> The federal government downloaded that responsibility to the provinces, and 
> in Ontario the official place names appear at
> http://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.on.ca/Geonames/Index.html?site=Geographic_Names=Geonames=en-US

Bill, as I look at "Sault Ste. Marie" in Ontario in that database and compare 
it to the "Sault Ste Marie" across the water in Michigan (land of my birth, but 
not in the realm of this database's naming) I note something interesting:  the 
Canadian version has a period, denoting an abbreviation (we do use English, 
though the rule that a period is found at the end of an abbreviation in French 
is the same),  The Michigan one does not end in a period.  Were I to edit here, 
I would "follow what our OSM wiki says to put in OSM" expanding that 
abbreviation ("Ste." to "Sainte" in the Ontario version).  Some (many? most?)  
"Sainte-Quelque Chose" names have hyphens, too.  So, hm.

That would be my approach, as it is OSM's approach.  This is OSM, yet it is 
Canada, too, of course.  It's not always easy or clear, is it?

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Bill & Kathy Patterson]

It would seem to me that an official place name should take precedence over OSM 
protocols.  If we expand the abbreviations (or contractions), of St. and Ste., 
then are we not altering the official place name of the feature?
The federal government downloaded that responsibility to the provinces, and in 
Ontario the official place names appear 
athttp://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.on.ca/Geonames/Index.html?site=Geographic_Names=Geonames=en-US

Bill Patterson
  From: Kevin Farrugia 
 To: James  
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
   
Sorry, accidentally pressed reply instead of reply all:
Those are the official names, for example:http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/ 
search-place-names/unique/ FDJFNhttp://www4.rncan.gc.ca/ 
search-place-names/unique/ FDTCR
---
Kevin Farrugia
On Feb 16, 2018 3:50 PM, "James"  wrote:

http://saultstemarie.ca/
thats how its written. even on signs to there
On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea"  
wrote:

On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie

I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive criticism, 
but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our wiki 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Name s says "If the name can be spelled without an 
abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."

Thanks,
SteveA
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[Talk-ca] Serge Wroclawski's op/ed on the challenges OSM faces today

[David E. Nelson]

I thought I would post this article that I recently came across, and I would 
like to gauge how Canadian contributors to OSM would react to this.  It came 
across as a bit disconcerting to me, but it in no way affects my enthusiasm for 
OSM, given just how much I enjoy contributing to it.

https://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2018/02/16/osm-is-in-trouble/

- David E. Nelson

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[James]

My favourite is Moose Factory. I think Canadian typonomy was the consesus
last time we had the same subject come up

On Feb 16, 2018 7:14 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:

> In my OSM map updates to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from
> locality names, I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other
> abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to be removed)
> matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the prefix; if it doesn't,
> I will bring it back up here for review.
>
> I occasionally get "Saint John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so
> personally I do not want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add to
> my confusion.   :-)
>
> What's your favourite locality name in Canada?  I have to go with
> "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"
>
>  On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that Pine St
> is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct unabbreviated Canadian
> English version. It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the
> correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks
> incorrect to me.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Matthew Darwin]

In my OSM map updates to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from 
locality names, I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other 
abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to be 
removed) matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the prefix; 
if it doesn't, I will bring it back up here for review.


I occasionally get "Saint John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so 
personally I do not want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add 
to my confusion.   :-)


What's your favourite locality name in Canada?  I have to go with 
"Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"


On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that 
Pine St is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct 
unabbreviated Canadian English version. It is not clear to me that 
"Saint Catharines" is the correct unabbreviated version of the 
city's name. In fact it looks incorrect to me.


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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Jarek Piórkowski]

With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that Pine St is
an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct unabbreviated Canadian
English version. It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the
correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks
incorrect to me.

--Jarek

On Feb 16, 2018 23:37, "Tristan Anderson" 
wrote:

> I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St."
> should always be written as "Saint".
>
> I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or
> official document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even
> wrong to local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM,
> "Pine Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes
> are abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in
> articles.  I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street
> suffix, even to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life,
> such as when I enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that
> there is nothing incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an
> abbreviation's ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version
> incorrect.
>
> There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of
> Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada
> Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue,
> St. Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named
> those streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I
> can be certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of
> convenience, one that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a
> bunch of street names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody
> having a problem with beginning all six of these names with "Saint".
>
> The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as
> it could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia
> disambiguation page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human
> that there is no city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit
> of trouble there.  And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a
> contraction, not an abbreviation.
>
> I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this
> is one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.
>
> From: OSM Volunteer stevea 
> Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
>
>
> I stand corrected, thank you everybody.
>
> BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of
> Columbia, but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now
> truly become the official name, abbreviation included.
>
> SteveA
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[James]

the only expanded version of the city name was in french, and on wikipedia:
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sault-Sainte-Marie_(Ontario)

Maybe because people(English) have trouble spelling "Sainte"?

On Feb 16, 2018 5:38 PM, "Tristan Anderson" 
wrote:

> I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St."
> should always be written as "Saint".
>
> I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or
> official document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even
> wrong to local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM,
> "Pine Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes
> are abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in
> articles.  I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street
> suffix, even to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life,
> such as when I enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that
> there is nothing incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an
> abbreviation's ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version
> incorrect.
>
> There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of
> Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada
> Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue,
> St. Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named
> those streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I
> can be certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of
> convenience, one that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a
> bunch of street names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody
> having a problem with beginning all six of these names with "Saint".
>
> The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as
> it could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia
> disambiguation page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human
> that there is no city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit
> of trouble there.  And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a
> contraction, not an abbreviation.
>
> I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this
> is one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.
>
> From: OSM Volunteer stevea 
> Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
>
>
> I stand corrected, thank you everybody.
>
> BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of
> Columbia, but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now
> truly become the official name, abbreviation included.
>
> SteveA
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

We call it TALK-ca for a reason!  We call it OPENStreetMap for a reason!  
Consensus doesn't always come easy!  Thanks to everyone for good discussion.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Tristan Anderson]

I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St." 
should always be written as "Saint".

I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or official 
document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even wrong to 
local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM, "Pine 
Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes are 
abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in articles.  
I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street suffix, even 
to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life, such as when I 
enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that there is nothing 
incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an abbreviation's 
ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version incorrect.

There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of 
Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada 
Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue, St. 
Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named those 
streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I can be 
certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of convenience, one 
that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a bunch of street 
names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody having a problem with 
beginning all six of these names with "Saint".

The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as it 
could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia disambiguation 
page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human that there is no 
city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit of trouble there.  
And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a contraction, not an 
abbreviation.

I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this is 
one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.

From: OSM Volunteer stevea 
Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
  

I stand corrected, thank you everybody.

BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of Columbia, 
but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now truly become the 
official name, abbreviation included.

SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I stand corrected, thank you everybody.

BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of Columbia, 
but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now truly become the 
official name, abbreviation included.

SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

We (the USA) has many sources which "say" St. Louis (Missouri) but OSM has 
name=Saint Louis.  The latter is correct in an OSM context.  Following our 
wiki, CAN the name be spelled without an abbreviation?"  If yes, then please do 
so.

Thanks,
SteveA

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:50 PM, James  wrote:
> 
> http://saultstemarie.ca/
> 
> thats how its written. even on signs to there
> 
> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea"  
> wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
> 
> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive criticism, 
> but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our wiki 
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled without an 
> abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
> 
> Thanks,
> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Harald Kliems]

See also:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:50 PM James  wrote:

> http://saultstemarie.ca/
>
> thats how its written. even on signs to there
>
> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
>> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
>>
>> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive
>> criticism, but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our
>> wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled
>> without an abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

[Matthew Darwin]

To start the cleanup process, the following *Ontario* cities are being 
changed (remove "City of" or "City Of").   Once that is done, I'll 
come back with the next batch to process...


The idea to remove the city name in its entirety will require careful 
consideration to ensure the necessary boundary relations are in place 
and of course more discussion to see if people are comfortable to 
proceed on that kind of activity.


 110707 City of Toronto
  45716 City of Hamilton
  27234 City of London
  25393 City of Brampton
  17251 City of Vaughan
  16929 City of St. Catharines
  16592 City of Kawartha Lakes
  16087 City of Thunder Bay
  14787 City of Niagara Falls
  13966 City of Kingston
  12085 City of Oshawa
  11321 City of Barrie
  10981 City of Burlington
  10347 City of Guelph
   9666 City of Brantford
   9384 City of Sarnia
   9102 City of Windsor
   9044 City Of Sault Ste. Marie
   8263 City of Peterborough
   7819 City of Quinte West
   7593 City of Welland
   6753 City of Pickering
   6608 City of Greater Sudbury
   6375 City Of Greater Sudbury
   6239 City of Belleville
   6165 City of Prince Edward County
   5696 City of Cornwall
   5269 City Of Timmins
   4877 City of Port Colborne
   4208 City of Woodstock
   3971 City of Thorold
   3692 City of St. Thomas
   3603 City of Cambridge
   3529 City of Orillia
   3355 City of Brockville
   3098 City of Owen Sound
   2733 City of Clarence-Rockland
   2377 City Of Pembroke
   1549 City Of Dryden
    871 City of Kenora
    766 City Of Elliot Lake
    544 City of Elliot Lake
    302 City of Waterloo
    241 City of North Bay
 78 City of Kitchener
 47 City of Markham
 18 City of Timmins
  3 City of Vaughan (Maple)
  2 City of Sault Ste. Marie



On 2018-02-12 09:13 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote:
Bernie is correct.  "City of", "Municipality of", "x County" is a 
legal name that would be referring to the legal entity itself (the 
Government) rather than the place.  The place should just be 
Toronto, Hamilton, Mississauga etc..


The data source these legal names comes from has the legal name as 
it's usually establishing the jurisdiction that contains the road.  
The address ranges are derived from the road system, so it's just 
been copied over.


-Kevin Farrugia
kevinfarru...@gmail.com 

On 12 February 2018 at 21:02, Bernie Connors > wrote:


I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New
Brunswick the Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of
municipalities. Some opt to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in
the Municipalities Act and some don't. But when it comes to
names on maps we should be more concerned with toponyms and not
official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is very
rare in toponyms. Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic
Names Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated
places" category -

http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=of%5B%5D=985=O



I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc
across the entire country:
City of Brant, ON
Village of Queen Charlotte, BC

Bernie.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea
>
wrote:

I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's
anything wrong with that.
SteveA

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-- 
Bernie Connors

New Maryland, NB

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[Talk-ca] Cleanup of addr:country, addr:province, addr:state

[Matthew Darwin]

Hi all,

During the discussion of cleaning up municipality names in Canada, it 
was suggested that the addr:city could be removed entirely if the 
appropriate boundaries are defined.   I would hazard to guess (and 
will endeavour to investigate) that the addr:city and the boundaries 
do not always align in Canada (there are ~11300 administrative 
boundaries of some type and there are ~7000 unique addr:city tags)... 
so this will be a much more long term effort.


However, the provincial/territorial boundaries are defined, so 
removing the addr:country, addr:provice and addr:state tags might be a 
more reasonable at this time.  (addr:country is used ~94% less than 
addr:street)


Tags, by number of occurrences:

 167902 addr:country

  33252 addr:state

 179741 addr:province

2950115 addr:city

2942159 addr:street

2934341 addr:housenumber


--
Matthew Darwin
matt...@mdarwin.ca
http://www.mdarwin.ca

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