Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
Richard Welty wrote: >> a specific example that's in front of me right now is the Mohawk-Hudson > Bike-Hike Trail (aka the Mohawk-Hudson Bikeway). it spans two counties > and is maintained by the towns it passes through for the most part, sort > of sitting between local and regional. i've dithered over lcn vs rcn, > the description of the distinction on the wiki pages doesn't make this > very clear. it uses a mixture of dedicated paths on old canal towpaths > and old RR roadbed, and a some sections of roadway shared with cars, but > without dedicated bike paths (parallel parking, car doors, and everything.) > > now the Mohawk-Hudson bikeway is also considered part of the longer Erie > Canalway Trail, which is clearly an rcn, running as it does from Albany > to Buffalo. Two relations: One local for the Mohawk-Hudson, one regional for the Erie Canalway. Multiple references are allowed if they both apply. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
Sam Vekemans wrote: > Hi, > how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? > > I know we have > lcn= for local cycle routes (named & not named) > rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) > > then there's > ncn=for nation wide > but there's no > scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) The wiki seems to indicate that LCN is for metro and city routes, RCN is state, and NCN is US and Interstate routes, and US Bicycle routes. NCN for a state cycleway would be wrong. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
For whatever it's worth, I've been tagging the statewide cycle routes in Pennsylvania as RCN. I originally was tagging them as NCN, but there are actually 2 "interstate" cycle routes in the US, so I switched to RCN. I always took Andy's remark that LCN could mean "London cycle network" to mean that LCN is the proper tag for networks within a metro area. --Adam Sam Vekemans wrote: > Hi, > how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? > > I know we have > lcn= for local cycle routes (named & not named) > rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) > > then there's > ncn=for nation wide > but there's no > scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) > > in Quebec we have a state-wide network, but listed as ncn. (route de verte) > (the Trans Canada Trail isnt a 'cycle route' per say, but elements of > it allows cycling on different surfaces). Do we make a new render for > a 'recreational trail'? > > Is there an established practice? > > Thanks, > Sam Vekemans > Across Canada Trails > > > On 10/30/09, Richard Welty wrote: > >> i have added a page for NY state bike routes here: >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_York/Bike_Routes >> >> and added my just created relation (not quite complete) for the Mohawk >> Hudson Bikeway from Rotterdam Junction to Albany. >> >> lots of bike routes in NY need to be documented: http://www.ptny.org/ >> >> richard >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> talk...@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> >> > > > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
[i'm new to the tagging discussion, just joined, please bear with me] On 11/1/09 7:13 PM, Adam Glauser wrote: > Sam's message has me somewhat confused as to who said what. In terms > of cycling tagging in North America, where the legal framework is > fairly similar* most places, my approach has been as follows, FWIW. > First of all, it gets confusing quickly because we don't have much in > the way of bicycle-specific laws. this originally came up because i had mentioned on talk-us that i had set up a NY Bike Routes page and had started working on some New York State related routes. > LCN makes sense for roads designated as "recommended" cycling routes. > Cities like Toronto have roads and paths which have been deemed to be > safe for cycling, which may or may not have cycling-specific > infrastructure. a specific example that's in front of me right now is the Mohawk-Hudson Bike-Hike Trail (aka the Mohawk-Hudson Bikeway). it spans two counties and is maintained by the towns it passes through for the most part, sort of sitting between local and regional. i've dithered over lcn vs rcn, the description of the distinction on the wiki pages doesn't make this very clear. it uses a mixture of dedicated paths on old canal towpaths and old RR roadbed, and a some sections of roadway shared with cars, but without dedicated bike paths (parallel parking, car doors, and everything.) now the Mohawk-Hudson bikeway is also considered part of the longer Erie Canalway Trail, which is clearly an rcn, running as it does from Albany to Buffalo. it might be good to look at the master plans that various cities are producing in the US in response to federal requirements. Albany, NY just finalized theirs within the past week, and copies may be obtained here: http://www.albanyny.org/BreakingNews/09-10-30/completion_of_the_albany_bike_master_plan.aspx there is a lot of detail about route designations and implementations in the final draft pdf file. > RCN I'm not really sure about. To me, the Route Verte in Quebec would > be a good example, though practical and perhaps linguistic reasons > have led to it being classified NCN. > and in the context i'm looking at, the NY Bike Routes and the canalway trails make sense as rcn tagged trails. richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
On 10/30/09 6:59 PM, Sam Vekemans wrote: > Hi, > how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? > > I know we have > lcn= for local cycle routes (named& not named) > rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) > > then there's > ncn=for nation wide > but there's no > scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) > i'm using rcn, it seemed the closest. maybe scn should be created? richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
My impression is that the point of having different levels of cycle routes (local, regional, national) is to avoid problems with names conflicting. That would suggest that Adam's interpretation is the way to go -- after all, there's not too much risk that two different cycle routes within the same metro area will have the same designation, right? - Dan On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Adam Killian wrote: > For whatever it's worth, I've been tagging the statewide cycle routes in > Pennsylvania as RCN. I originally was tagging them as NCN, but there are > actually 2 "interstate" cycle routes in the US, so I switched to RCN. > > I always took Andy's remark that LCN could mean "London cycle network" > to mean that LCN is the proper tag for networks within a metro area. > > --Adam > > Sam Vekemans wrote: > > Hi, > > how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? > > > > I know we have > > lcn= for local cycle routes (named & not named) > > rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) > > > > then there's > > ncn=for nation wide > > but there's no > > scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) > > > > in Quebec we have a state-wide network, but listed as ncn. (route de > verte) > > (the Trans Canada Trail isnt a 'cycle route' per say, but elements of > > it allows cycling on different surfaces). Do we make a new render for > > a 'recreational trail'? > > > > Is there an established practice? > > > > Thanks, > > Sam Vekemans > > Across Canada Trails > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
Sam's message has me somewhat confused as to who said what. In terms of cycling tagging in North America, where the legal framework is fairly similar* most places, my approach has been as follows, FWIW. First of all, it gets confusing quickly because we don't have much in the way of bicycle-specific laws. LCN makes sense for roads designated as "recommended" cycling routes. Cities like Toronto have roads and paths which have been deemed to be safe for cycling, which may or may not have cycling-specific infrastructure. RCN I'm not really sure about. To me, the Route Verte in Quebec would be a good example, though practical and perhaps linguistic reasons have led to it being classified NCN. I think that the sections of the Trans-Canada Trail that allow bicycle use would be properly tagged with NCN. As for what is useful for cyclists to determine what is a "good" cycling route, I think that the maxspeed and cycleway tags should be the highest priority. There are probably more definitions of what determines a good route than there are cyclists, so simply giving information about the infrastructure will allow each person to determine the best route for their own level of skill. * A notable exception being bylaws regarding the legality of bicycles on sidewalks. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Sam Vekemans wrote: > Where as, in North America, it's only pedestrians that get consideration, so > 'sidewalks' are planed on every street, There's that all inclusive "every" word again. Sidewalks are planned on many urban streets, but not all. Rural roads rarely get a sidewalk. In Edmonton, the major roadways routinely do not get sidewalks along them to discourage pedestrian traffic along high speed throughfares. A lot of commercial zoned areas do not get sidewalks. Most residential areas get sidewalks, but again, not all areas. There are some areas that have cycle routes planned into the infrastructure. Generally though, there's not enough of a cycle route to make it safe enough to get to your destination. You are expected to ride with the motorized traffic, but if you take the road space that should be yours, you'll probably end up run over by a motorist. It's hard enough to keep from being flattened when riding a motorbike that can keep up with traffic, and has the power to speed away from the idiots trying to kill you. James VE6SRV ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Richard Welty wrote: > On 10/30/09 6:59 PM, Sam Vekemans wrote: > >> Hi, >> how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? >> >> I know we haven >> lcn= for local cycle routes (named& not named) >> rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) >> >> then there's >> ncn=for nation wide >> but there's no >> scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) >> >> > i'm using rcn, it seemed the closest. maybe scn should be created? > > richard > > lcn = is light blue... local cycle routes rcn = dark blue regional cycle routes ncn = red ... national cycle routes ... and ya, i think maybe a pink or a green for a scn. .. i would also recommend that pcn be used in the same way (as come contries uses province') So, if both tags do the same thing, that would be a good solution. In switzerland, the lcn is shown as regional cycle route... town to town, where the dark blue is shown locally. (so if the the dark blue and light blue were swiched) So if switzerland was used as the basis... we have. rcn = dark blue (local cycle routes) lcn = light blue (reginal cycle routes) or state cycle routes or region of greater London area) ncn = red national cycle route (that cross state/regional/province lines) And where the local cycle routes are not listed... simply becacuase bicycles can go everywhere that a car can go. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/26242773 indicated that the way is part of the national cycle network and on the other side of the river http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/32391713 is indicated as part of the rcn .. in light blue... Where the dark blue appears to be only in the big cities.. such as Basel, where this dark blue is what connects the communities that are IN basel. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.5615&lon=7.6077&zoom=12&layers=00B0FTFT So in other words... i think its a social thing. We (in north America) think Bicycling as a 'recreation', where it's a week-end thing, and just for the ''cycling people". As the Automobile, is considered 1st when cities are planned out. They are simply designed with the expectation that cars are to be driven everywhere. So, on the otherhand, in Switzerland (when the city planners design communities), they right away look at 3 things. How pedestrians will use the community, how cyclest will use the community, and lastly, how cars will manuver through the city to get to the next city. Where as, in North America, it's only pedestrians that get consideration, so 'sidewalks' are planed on every street, ... and it's only in the last 20 years that 'curbs' so wheel chairs can access them. (in MANY areas) we still dont have accessable curbs. So i propose that we start making the cyclemap, with the 'expectation' that cyclists are allowed FULL use of roads.. (accept of course free-ways), and bi-ways, cyclists are expected to use the shoulder where available. And it doesn't need to be marked. So this might require some effort on our part, and perhaps we need to have a new tag for "ccr" city cycle route ... and this might eleviate the problem. As in the case of our example, the cyclemap for Solothurn, it doesnt indicate which roads are 'cycle friendly' that's probably becuase they ALL are. :-) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.20696&lon=7.54861&zoom=15&layers=00B0FTF Cheers, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] [Talk-us] NY Bicycle Routes
Hi, how are you tagging state-wide cycle routes? I know we have lcn= for local cycle routes (named & not named) rcn=for regional cycle routes (ie metro area) then there's ncn=for nation wide but there's no scn (state cycle network) or pcn (province cycle network) in Quebec we have a state-wide network, but listed as ncn. (route de verte) (the Trans Canada Trail isnt a 'cycle route' per say, but elements of it allows cycling on different surfaces). Do we make a new render for a 'recreational trail'? Is there an established practice? Thanks, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails On 10/30/09, Richard Welty wrote: > i have added a page for NY state bike routes here: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_York/Bike_Routes > > and added my just created relation (not quite complete) for the Mohawk > Hudson Bikeway from Rotterdam Junction to Albany. > > lots of bike routes in NY need to be documented: http://www.ptny.org/ > > richard > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > talk...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blog: http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
