Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
On 12.02.2010 9:03, Jaak Laineste wrote: I did not know about maposmatic.org, this is amazing service. I thought that one day you can print out Estonian Road Atlas from OSM, but they have already almost done it! Question about it: why you cannot select Tartu? It seems to fulfil their criteria for proper city (admin_level=8, boundary=administrative)? I do no know but using bounding box result is great-looking :) http://maposmatic.org/rendered//009951_2010-02-12_09-27_Tartukaart.png http://maposmatic.org/rendered//009951_2010-02-12_09-27_Tartukaart_index.png - M - ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
I did not know about maposmatic.org, this is amazing service. I thought that one day you can print out Estonian Road Atlas from OSM, but they have already almost done it! Question about it: why you cannot select Tartu? It seems to fulfil their criteria for proper city (admin_level=8, boundary=administrative)? Ps. comment about boundaries from Maaamet digital data department head Mu arust pingutate te üle. Mis kasu on piiridest, mis tinglikult annavad mingi osa merd kas Lääne või Harjumaa või siis Viimsi või Jõelähtme valla koosseisu. Ma kahtlen kas need piirid omavad mingit tähtsust üldse avaliku halduse seisukohalt. Ehk siis - mis mõte nende kuvamisel on. Äkki panustaks ressurssi muude olulisemate kihtide lisamisele OpenStreetMap projektis? Baaskaart on üldse selline asi, mida keegi raha eesti ei taha, mõistlikult kihipõhiselt üksikute selle kaardi kihtide levitamiseks ei ole õiguslikku alust. Ehk siis ma antud juhul ei võimleks sellel teemal, et erikokkuleppeid organiseerida -Original Message- From: talk-ee-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-ee- boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andre Grueneberg Sent: 11. veebruar 2010. a. 20:31 To: talk-ee@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines Joosep-Georg Järvemaa wrote: So, I propose we do not invent the municipalities borders on water by ourself and draw them only where there is some reference to do so. Okay ... after seeing the result in maposmatic (http://maposmatic.org/rendered//009932_2010-02-11_19- 10_KrdlalinnEesti.pdf) I finally decided to revert the admin_level=8 boundaries. Andre -- I'm going to see the cow beneath the sea. ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
I can't comment all details, some general ideas. Maybe someone else will step in? Jaak Laineste wrote: I have now done so for admin_level=8 in Hiiu, Saare and Pärnu maakond. [I'll revert that if agreed here] How does it look like on Mapnik, can you give permalink where you have defined it so? How about (some special examples): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=59.027lon=22.7512zoom=13layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.202lon=22.3945zoom=12layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.35lon=24.5058zoom=12layers=B000FTF And some counter example (only having coastline+relation membership with admin_level=8 -- not modified by me): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.9487lon=23.5454zoom=14layers=B000FTF (Some islets having problems at the moment ... will fix that) In visual rendering the arbitrary border in sea looks better option. But technically (geoinformatically and legally) this is just cartographic hack. Paper map makers have freedom to use a lot of visual tricks, like drawing fake borders, they also move POIs (and also roads, rivers etc - depending what is more important) to fake locations to make them visible better. In digital databases like OSM you cannot do it. Or if we really need to do it, then it must be correspondingly tagged (fake border, fake location etc). IMO the proper way to solve it would be to have Mapnik rendering fixed: if line is both city border and coastline, then it should not be rendered as border. This is how also paper maps are usually done. Can you add ticket to the mapnik trac, I think layout bugs are handled through it ? If Narva city municipal border (and their jurisdiction) ends with riverbank, and there is some federal land before state/EU border then this should be like that in the map also. Question: Is this the case or is it just some assumption? Well, just my assumption. Actually http://vana.narvaplan.ee/Linnakaart.pdf shows that the city border is in the middle of the river (like you suggest), but this could also be subjective view of the municipality. Or Maa-amet files are wrong. By the way, http://www.narvaplan.ee/index.php?lang=etmenu=5page=0 has also Vector map of Narva (in terrible DGN and DWG formats, i.e. probably without attributes, but with buildings). Import? Similar thing with Tallinn and Aegna island (which is part of Tallinn, Central linnaosa); Naissaar is part of Viimsi vald, so it is quite a mixture there if you try to divide sea between them reasonably. I've seen that on some maps Võrtsjärv has been divided between counties, but in Maaamet latest data has admin borders on shoreline. Actually about every map I have seen contains the border(s) in Võrtsjärv. Yes, it is common on paper maps. It does not mean it is really correct. Maaamet's http://xgis.maaamet.ee/xGIS/XGis does not have any admin boders on Võrtsjärv, Peipsi, Sea and Narva River. It also does not look like a cartographic accident, as on Emajõgi and smaller lakes there are admin borders shown. Either: Maaamet knows that this is right or they just avoid the issue of vaguely defined (undefined) border areas. I wrote emails to Narva city and Võrtsjärve sihtasutus, lets see if they answer anything. ps. We have the final expert questions from KYSK for our project, and deadline until 11.02 to answer them. Jaak ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
On 9 February 2010 00:01, Andre Grueneberg andre-...@grueneberg.de wrote: I have now done so for admin_level=8 in Hiiu, Saare and Pärnu maakond. [I'll revert that if agreed here] How about (some special examples): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=59.027lon=22.7512zoom=13layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.202lon=22.3945zoom=12layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.35lon=24.5058zoom=12layers=B000FTF It does not look right to my eye. Is it possible to have Maa-amet municipality borders visible together with their orthophotography through WMS? At some point I saw some configuration options in Merkaartor but I could not get it working. So I'm still using JOSM... Regards, -- Joosep-Georg Järvemaa ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
Joosep-Georg Järvemaa wrote: How about (some special examples): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=59.027lon=22.7512zoom=13layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.202lon=22.3945zoom=12layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=58.35lon=24.5058zoom=12layers=B000FTF It does not look right to my eye. What exactly do you mean? Is it possible to have Maa-amet municipality borders visible together with their orthophotography through WMS? Well, you could take the OSM file from http://andre.grueneberg.de/osm/municipalities_20090601.osm.bz2, load it into JOSM and open the Orthophoto WMS in the background. Alternatively you could compare two WMS layers ... unfortunately JOSM or WMSPlugin cannot add transparency to those layers ... Andre -- This was a reminder of an unforgettable voice -- wossisname! you know? signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
Is it possible to have Maa-amet municipality borders visible together with their orthophotography through WMS? At some point I saw some configuration options in Merkaartor but I could not get it working. So I'm still using JOSM... You can use some free more powerful WMS client, e.g. Gaia or Quantum GIS which enables to select list of layers. I see there same: borders are ending with shoreline. ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
Re: [Talk-ee] Administrative boundaries and coastlines
Jaak Laineste wrote: Sea aquatorium (mereakvatoorium) is actually legally quite poorly defined in Estonia. Sea law (merepõhjaseadus) is under construction, as there is issue that now nobody knows who gives permits to build wind turbines into sea. In reality sea areas are administred in national level, not in local (county or municipality) level. In this terms current local administrative borders are geometrically same as coastline, plus the islands/islets nearby which are belonging to some municipality/county. But exactly these islands/islets make things look ugly. At least having a county multipolygon containing hundreds of islets does not make sense to me (even though it might be correct). And if I start to divide the sea by counties, IMO there is no reason not to do it for other admin_levels. Those boundaries are not maritime borders, so it's clear that only land masses inside the polygon belong to the entity in question. Those boundaries are available using the coastlines. Also official border maps what we used from Maaamet reflect this. After merepõhjaseadus (sea area law) is made, maybe sea will be also divided between counties, but I guess that sea will remain administred in national level. I know ... and exactly these official borders need to be interpreted in a map. If we consider the data from Maa-amet, Narva city ends at the riverbank of Narva river, whereas the national border is a few meters farther away in the middle of the river. Another question is that maybe islets (laiud) should not be tagged as administrative areas, as (if?) Mapnik would try to put admin names on top of everyone of them; and map would look bad. Was this the issue with islets near Hiiumaa? Problem here was in some import of the 2008 data, these islets all had the name attribute Hiiu maakond. Now you're getting exactly to the point. :) Even though islets only get coastlines which are part of the boundary=administrative relations, Mapnik renders an administrative border (including the relations' names) along the coastline. :/ [I have seen that the renderer seems not to produce very reproducible output in some cases] That's exactly why my approach is to build unoffical polygons around the sea part of the administrative entity including the islets. I have now done so for admin_level=8 in Hiiu, Saare and Pärnu maakond. [I'll revert that if agreed here] Andre -- A production of the digitally insane. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-ee mailing list Talk-ee@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ee
