[Talk-GB] West Midlands social reminder for this Thursday 7th April
Reminder that our next social is this Thursday 7th April from 7pm. Usual venue, The Bull, on Price Street, Birmingham http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mappa_Mercia#Social_Meet_Up Cheers Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
For those not aware, Christoph Böhme put together NOVAM: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Novam A useful resource for checking out bus stop status in an area though I'm not sure of its current status with respect to data reliability. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Stuart Grimshaw [mailto:stuart.grims...@gmail.com] Sent: 03 April 2011 2:19 PM To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import? On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Jerry Clough : SK53 on OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: a) Do not import any NaPTAN data in areas where imports have already taken place. Experience shows that detailed survey correction of NaPTAN data is not to be undertaken lightly. IIRC about 10% is wrong. The best data are for Hullwhere Chris Hill surveyed the lot. I have done only about 20% of Nottingham's NaPTAN stops and have a similar error rate. Unfortunately processing NaPTAN alongside primary surveying just didnt prove viable, but there are plenty of stops which no longer exist, have moved or dont exist on the ground. b) Check with any mappers in the area before performing an import. There may be good reasons why they have not requested one in the past. c) The best approach would be to host current NaPTAN data in a location where OSM data can be compared then mappers could choose to import it. Having an application which did this would be way more useful than shoehorning NaPTAN data in on its own. I think this is a great idea Jerry, an app for people to compare what OSM holds already against what's in the latest version of NAPTAN, the data we were looking at was a few days old. What's the maximum area or number of points a tool like this would normally import? You don't want someone just selecting the whole of the UK then importing them. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3549 - Release Date: 04/04/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: For those not aware, Christoph Böhme put together NOVAM: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Novam Oh, that is awesome. But instead of deleting the n:verified tag, I have set it to yes everywhere and sadly Novam sees that as not verified. Would it be difficult to add/change this? cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
Derick, I thought Christoph had it working with the various formats of verified. Try changing the scheme (bottom right) and see if that changes anything Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Derick Rethans [mailto:o...@derickrethans.nl] Sent: 04 April 2011 10:29 AM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: 'Stuart Grimshaw'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import? On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: For those not aware, Christoph Böhme put together NOVAM: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Novam Oh, that is awesome. But instead of deleting the n:verified tag, I have set it to yes everywhere and sadly Novam sees that as not verified. Would it be difficult to add/change this? cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3549 - Release Date: 04/04/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I thought Christoph had it working with the various formats of verified. Try changing the scheme (bottom right) and see if that changes anything I've tried already... and although it does change things, it doesn't do the verified=yes approach in any variant. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
The Birmingham scheme should show a naptan:verified=yes as green (assuming all other tags ok) as that's what I asked Christoph to add because I was doing the same as you, I.e. adding naptan:verified=yes rather than deleting the tag. Not sure though if it works for a plan verified tag without the naptan in front. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Derick Rethans [mailto:o...@derickrethans.nl] Sent: 04 April 2011 10:34 AM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: 'Derick Rethans'; 'Stuart Grimshaw'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import? On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: I thought Christoph had it working with the various formats of verified. Try changing the scheme (bottom right) and see if that changes anything I've tried already... and although it does change things, it doesn't do the verified=yes approach in any variant. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3549 - Release Date: 04/04/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: The Birmingham scheme should show a naptan:verified=yes as green (assuming all other tags ok) as that's what I asked Christoph to add because I was doing the same as you, I.e. adding naptan:verified=yes rather than deleting the tag. Not sure though if it works for a plan verified tag without the naptan in front. Right, but that requires route_ref and shelter to be set before it turns green. (And I meant the naptan:verified tag, I just shortened in the mail). cheers, Derick ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On 4 April 2011 11:08, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: I've stopped tagging route_ref because according to the wiki the preferred way to map bus routes is as a relation. Does that reflect the accepted practice in this country? As have I, so I have to keep switching between schemes in Novam to check bus stops. To at least switch away from red I am looking for: * naptan:verified switched to 'yes' Other indications of better data quality that might deserve a green icon are: * possibly shelter=yes/no * possibly member of some relations (but probably not all of the routes) * any non-naptan bus stops in the vicinity What uses the bus route data anyway? The bus map, and who knows what other clever applications in the future. I always try to do things properly when I'm in a location to save effort later, and because it annoys me when I find someone has mapped the things they're interested in but left off detail I find useful. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Ed Avis wrote: I've stopped tagging route_ref because according to the wiki the preferred way to map bus routes is as a relation. Does that reflect the accepted practice in this country? Same here. What uses the bus route data anyway? I do :-) And Harry: http://www.harrywood.co.uk/blog/2011/03/28/bus-route-rendering-at-rewiredstate/ Which I think is a good start to get a London centric openbusmap.org perhaps. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
Derick Rethans osm@... writes: What uses the bus route data anyway? I do And Harry: http://www.harrywood.co.uk /blog/2011/03/28/bus-route-rendering-at-rewiredstate/ My question was really a way to ask 'what format should bus routes be tagged in so that software can use them?'. I _think_ that the above example is using the relations and not the route_ref on individual stops. The trouble is, route_ref is directly marked on the ground. The path followed by a bus in the correct order, although it is more useful information, is also harder to discover. In the time it took to ride on a bus from Croydon to Crystal Palace, or wherever, I could map a hundred streets and other POIs. It's a pity that Transport for London's data feeds are under unsuitable terms. Perhaps at least we can make sure that OSM contains all the bus stops with the necessary tags to cross-reference them against the TfL data set. I don't know what the situation is in other areas. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On 04/04/2011 11:08, Ed Avis wrote: I've stopped tagging route_ref because according to the wiki the preferred way to map bus routes is as a relation. Does that reflect the accepted practice in this country? What uses the bus route data anyway? Potentially anyone with a Garmin following the mkgmap how to create new style rules notes here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mkgmap/help/style_rules Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On 4 April 2011 11:26, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: The trouble is, route_ref is directly marked on the ground. The path followed by a bus in the correct order, although it is more useful information, is also harder to discover. In the time it took to ride on a bus from Croydon to Crystal Palace, or wherever, I could map a hundred streets and other POIs. In London we have, relatively speaking, many bus stops and few routes. So if you're working a local area rather than a route, you can do a lot to help with the harder task of getting bus stops right. You can at least make sure it is located correctly, is marked as verified and has the shelter tag. If you're not all that interested in bus routes and don't want to spend a long time tracking down the relations for the routes in question (either because they don't exist in the database yet, or are partial routes covering roads a long way away), I would think adding a route_ref tag is absolutely fine. I've come across a few of these when checking bus data in Peckham/East Dulwich, and have used it to add some relations to bus stops. Back in the day I also merged a couple of relations where people had started the same route in different parts if London. For those checking bus route validity, it would be nice to have a tool that let you select a route and that would show all the members brightly coloured, with all the bus stops along the route that aren't members also clearly visible, and perhaps using route_ref to flag up any obvious omissions. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
What we seem to be edging towards is a mixed tagging of route_ref and relations, being respectively the 'rough' and 'proper' way to tag bus routes, and the need for some lint-like tool to reconcile the two - at least as far as migrating data from route_ref to the ideal tagging. If you just wish to verify the position of the bus stop and not any of the other information like name, local_ref or route_ref, then you can often find the position using Bing imagery. I've adjusted a handful of stops this way and marked naptan:verified=yes but tagged a note to say that only the position was checked. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On 4 April 2011 19:36, Stuart Grimshaw stuart.grims...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with tagging routes on a map is that they change s often. We saw during Sheffield's Transport Hack Day this weekend when the guys from our local travel authority showed us how bus routes don't just change from month to month, they change depending on the time of day! I'm not an expert on bus routes in London, but I don't think they change that much here. We get diversions for roadworks, which present a similar problem for the basic road network. There are night buses with separate route relations. Sometimes routes do change but TfL announce these on their web site. I imagine there will be a lot of regional variation, and in any case the problem of keeping it up to date and accutate is the same as for any other map data, none of which we have perfect answers for. Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
Stuart Grimshaw wrote: Some routes stop after a certain time of day, or they follow a different route at weekends. They follow a different route for 1 journey before or after school and they go to different stops because of roadworks. To keep this information accurate you really would have to update it automatically Not at all. Simply add some tags to the route relation to express that this is the route which is valid from 3pm to 5pm, or whatever. Add a separate relation for the late night route. Or use roles, or extra tags on the stops. You get the idea. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Rebooting-the-NAPTAN-import-tp6233869p6240199.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rebooting the NAPTAN import?
On 04/04/2011 19:36, Stuart Grimshaw wrote: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: What we seem to be edging towards is a mixed tagging of route_ref and relations, being respectively the 'rough' and 'proper' way to tag bus routes, and the need for some lint-like tool to reconcile the two - at least as far as migrating data from route_ref to the ideal tagging. The problem with tagging routes on a map is that they change s often. We saw during Sheffield's Transport Hack Day this weekend when the guys from our local travel authority showed us how bus routes don't just change from month to month, they change depending on the time of day! Some routes stop after a certain time of day, or they follow a different route at weekends. They follow a different route for 1 journey before or after school and they go to different stops because of roadworks. They publish 2 sets of data, 1 that includes all stops, and one that includes only the stops that are currently in use, however whichever set of data they use for their web based bus information, they get complaints from various people. To keep this information accurate you really would have to update it automatically, and given OSM's nature and the work people have done that might automatically be updated I'm not sure that would be an achievable goal. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb This is a common point made by UK US Transport professionals, but I think it reflects their perspective as planners implementing changes. From a passenger's perspective it helps to have a degree of continuity in service numbers and routes: not least because frequent change is a good way of ensuring loss of custom. However, as Tom Chance says many bus routes stay more or less unchanged in essentials for decades. For instance Ed Parsons recently tweeted http://twitter.com/edparsons/statuses/54086532159635456about the 285 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses_route_285 having RATP decals on the buses, and I instantly knew the bus he wastalkign about. Wikipedia notes the one major route change I remember in 1994, when instead of going straight into Heathrow it did a big circuit on the N-side, which IIRC is why I stopped using it. Pretty stable. Elsewhere in London, the 16 red bus still runs up Edgware Road as it did in 1979, and the 154 along Stanley Park Road as it did in 1983. Further afield the map in 1912 Baedeker is still pretty good for Zurich tram routes, although no. 1 died a long time ago. The places where I follow bus changes with some degree of regularity might not be typical, but I think are adequately representative. * Nottingham has had *one* major change in service patterns since the demise of its tram network in late 1930s. This was under ten years ago when all routes changed to a hub-and-spoke system against the older cross-town routes. Since then there has been minor tweaking of the NCT network, and introduction of some smaller buses. At the moment there seems to be a flurry of new services being introduced by new operators which are far harder to keep track of than changes in the main existing routes. * Maidenhead Windsor tends to see significant changes to route numbering every couple of years. However the basic routes have not changed significantly: most of the changes are attempts to find cross-town journeys which make reliable timetabling easier. The one route segment which was dropped was reintroduced fairly quickly. Country bus services are far more vulnerable to change and this usually just means dropping parts of the route or hitting service frequency. I don't believe bus travellers are using (or will use) OSM for bus routing (CS types might, see talk-transit /passim/): but there is far too much attention focused on the actual journey, rather than using maps to gain an appreciation of the possible. I usually look at bus maps to a) see if the proposed destination is practicable by public transport; b) is that still true on the day in question (usually Sunday), and only then do I start looking at timetables. Somewhere like Switzerland I only really need a very basic map of the system and can then rely on Taktfahrplannung http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taktfahrplan to do the rest (see here http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taktfahrplan for a single sheet route map cum timetable for the SwissRailways). Sadly, the chances of having such a system in Britain are negligible. I'm with the German Japanese folk that Chris Osbourne tweeted http://twitter.com/osbornec/status/47739100672958464about. So my basic conclusion is that having the route with the more significant variants in OSM is perfectly adequate for what lots of people want to use the data for (its good enough). All the extras of late night services,
