Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
HADW, I can see where your concerns stem from, & agree that some form of suitable source code to indicate where the data is derived from could mitigate any potential problems. At present there are some mappers, myself included, who are obtaining postcodes derived from the 'Land Registry price paid data' - we believe we are complying with the current legal requirements & are not introducing anything tainted into the database. If we are subsequently shown to be wrong it could help any redaction process if we were all using the same tag to indicate the postcode was derived from the Land Registry Price Paid database. I'm currently planning to start using source:postcode=Land Registry 'price paid' data unless there is any strong guidance to indicate something more suitable. As the postcode is the only part of the data I am using, another simple search would be for any postcodes, and then check their source tag. Regards Nick (Tallguy) On 29/09/13 01:01, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: On 28 September 2013 20:52, Rob Nickerson wrote: Oh I should add that I am a fan of source tags on the objects myself so I add a "source:postcode=Land Registry 'Price Paid' data" tag (or =ONS Postcode Centroids) to my edits. Not everyone agrees that source tags should be added to the objects, preferring instead to add them to the changeset comment. I use a mixture of both, depending on the context. Both are flawed, though. Adding to objects doesn't work well when different tags have different sources, and the geometry may have a different one too. It is also very vulnerable to people replacing the whole source with theirs. Adding it to changeset comments means it doesn't survive splits and merges. The database has no knowledge that these actually happened and doesn't record the audit trail necessary to find the true provenance of a node, way or relation. (For this reason, any mechanical redaction is likely to be quite flawed.) This lack of good traceability does worry me, as I see one of the biggest threats to a cloud sourced project like this is people getting over enthusiastic and importing copyright data, possibly in such small individual amounts that no alarms sound, but when aggregated, enough to get a copyright owner angry. My feeling is that the upcoming generation of contributors isn't so steeped in the concept of a map that is untainted by material with restrictive copyrights, so will use the easiest way of getting the data they want added. The most important reason for sources may be to limit what has to be taken down when a take down notice is received. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
On 28 September 2013 20:52, Rob Nickerson wrote: > Oh I should add that I am a fan of source tags on the objects myself so I > add a "source:postcode=Land Registry 'Price Paid' data" tag (or =ONS > Postcode Centroids) to my edits. Not everyone agrees that source tags should > be added to the objects, preferring instead to add them to the changeset > comment. I use a mixture of both, depending on the context. Both are flawed, though. Adding to objects doesn't work well when different tags have different sources, and the geometry may have a different one too. It is also very vulnerable to people replacing the whole source with theirs. Adding it to changeset comments means it doesn't survive splits and merges. The database has no knowledge that these actually happened and doesn't record the audit trail necessary to find the true provenance of a node, way or relation. (For this reason, any mechanical redaction is likely to be quite flawed.) This lack of good traceability does worry me, as I see one of the biggest threats to a cloud sourced project like this is people getting over enthusiastic and importing copyright data, possibly in such small individual amounts that no alarms sound, but when aggregated, enough to get a copyright owner angry. My feeling is that the upcoming generation of contributors isn't so steeped in the concept of a map that is untainted by material with restrictive copyrights, so will use the easiest way of getting the data they want added. The most important reason for sources may be to limit what has to be taken down when a take down notice is received. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
On 28 September 2013 23:50, Nick Allen wrote: > > Anyway, if you're looking for a project in OSM, adding addresses is easily > accomplished. Personally I currently use Keypad-Mapper 3 & OSMTracker to do > my surveying, and the exercise does me the world of good. > > If anyone fancies joining in, I've outlined how I carry out the process at > http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy That's how I started back on OSM. However, I am coming to have reservations about the use of GPS for that purpose. I found that I had to re-align everything to Bing for it to be useful, and, as I was mapping front door nodes, rather than buildings, I had to make a second pass to note the layout of the houses and to check for semis versus detached (the latter because of the GPS wander). Although it hasn't come back to the top of my list, I'm considering whether to dispense with the technology for the next tranche and just make notes to allow me to match up with Bing. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National speed limit changes
Peter, After your first post on this, my initial thought was that you were correct and the simpler tag you were proposing was enough. I started following your proposal, but I've thought a little more & feel that the more involved 'GB:nsl_single' type tag is actually needed & I'll be going back through my work over the last couple of days and changing it back. My thinking is; i/. The basis of GB law is that it is up to the individual to know what the law states, and to comply with it. No matter what your SatNav tells you it won't help you when you are standing in a court explaining your actions - the SatNav is a guide only and some maintain that they are unsafe as they distract the driver who may therefore miss the speed limits being displayed. ii/. If you are driving a motor vehicle with very few exceptions you should comply with the law regarding speed limits. iia/. A built up area with street lighting (I'm not entirely sure how you define built up area, and I seem to remember something about the street lights being no more than 200 yards apart) will have a speed limit of 30 mph unless there are signs indicating otherwise, & there should be repeater signs at intervals if it is not a 30mph area. iib/. National speed limit signs - the national speed limit has changed during my lifetime. Motorways are fairly simple, and for a car (not towing) it will be 70mph. Two-way roads with a national speed limit sign are also fairly simple, being 60mph for a car (not towing). Dual carriageways - little bit more complex - an island in the middle of the road to assist pedestrians to cross is not sufficient to make it a dual carriageway, but you would need to look at the current case law to help in deciding what exactly is a dual carriageway. I don't think a long length of wide road with the lanes divided by white crosshatch markings on the road, even if this exists for a length measured in miles, counts as a dual carriageway - it needs to have a physical barrier involved. iiic/. A prescribed limit indicated by signs such as '40', '50' etc.. iii/. The current software writers who seem to be using OSM data are mainly wrestling with the basics of navigating a car anywhere in the world but I think steps are being made towards navigation for larger vehicles, and these vehicles are likely to have different speed limits imposed on them in GB national speed limit areas. If they are writing software for navigating a 40 tonne lorry across Europe then the least we can do is try to indicate what type of road it is so they can attempt to give an indication to the driver of what is the maximum speed they may legally travel at. Regards Nick (Tallguy) Hi Peter, Thanks for replying here. Peter Miller wrote: So...on the basis that we should tag what is there, we see a white sign with a black diagonal line on it then that is what we should indicate. We do of course interpret that by putting what we believe if the correct legal speed limit in maxspeed. As such a single carriageway national limit is coded as "maxspeed:type=gb:national,maxspeed=60 mph". As dual carriageway is tagged as "maxspeed:type=gb:national,maxspeed=70 mph". The motorway version is "highway=motorway,maxspeed:type=gb:national,maxspeed=70 mph". I understand the potential problem (does a national speed limit dual carriageway slip road count as a dual carriageway or not?) but am concerned that changing e.g. "GB:nsl_single" to "gb:national" will: o potentially obscure any underlying data errors (imagine something tagged "maxspeed=70 mph, maxspeed:type=GB:nsl_single") o make things more difficult for data consumers (if only by changing the data from something that they might be expecting) o confuse new mappers who see data that they've entered being changed because it's "wrong", when in reality there really isn't a concensus on this. I fully accept that national speed limit tagging in the UK is a mess (at the time of writing 4 of the top 6 values for http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/maxspeed:type#values could mean the same thing) but any consolidation must proceed following discussion. Sure, and I am politely inviting people to discuss the subject now and am suggesting that it makes a lot of sense to consolidate around a tag value which describes what one sees in front of one on the ground, ie a black and white sign. To be clear I in the habit of using the nsl_single and nsl_dual format until PinkDuck politely pointed out that I was tagging some slip-road etc incorrectly and we agreed that is made more sense to avoid the confusion in the first place and use the simpler gb:national. With regard to the other point: For avoidance of doubt, all my edits have been fully manual. I don't believe that anyone has suggested otherwise I was responding to Roberts comment above that "I certainly don't think there has been any discussion of or agreement for a mass mechanical edit to change existing values
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
On 28 September 2013 20:45, Rob Nickerson wrote: > == Quote == >>I've just noticed (changeset 18037116) someone using this Land >>Registry data search tool to actually populate, rather than simply >>flag for re-survey postcode data. Given that the Land Registry >>require a copyright notice, and, unlike OS Open Data, there is no such >>copyright notice on OSM, is this usage actually legal? > == End Quote == > > Hi, > > Short answer= Yes, its fine, no problems. > > Long Answer= > I was expecting that changeset to be mine, but pleased to see that other > people are now using Matt's postcode tool. > > To answer your question:- The data is available under the standard Open > Government Licence (just like the ONS Postcode Centroids that I am also > using if it is right above a house), and can therefore be used with The view has been expressed, recently, on this list that the ONS postcode centroids are still encumbered by the Post Office copyrights. > attribution. The attribution is on the Contributors page [1] and has been > since 31 August 2012. Only a very select few sources are also attributed on > the Copyright page [2] and the page makes it clear that you should see the > Contributors page for the other sources. I must admit that I missed that, but I'm not convinced that LR will be happy with such a contorted trail. I think they would like a prominent notice in any place where the data is used. In particular, I can see people creating navigation tools and third party databases without making their uses adequately aware of the sources. Reading the LR FAQ, it is not just about the attribution, but about ensuring that people only make acceptable use of the data, as it is fairly clear that some people have objected to the price component of the data being published. This sort of information isn't being contributed by people actively agreeing to its use by OSM, so you can't really cover it by the "and its contributors" clause. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
Looks like some very good work is going on in Ruislip! When I saw the initial comment I also expected the changeset to be mine as it's the sort of thing I've been doing as well. Although I try to add a source code to everything I add to the data, I'm pretty sure there are times when I miss something. It's quite good to have this double level of history added to any changes - not only can you add a source tag, in my case probably source=survey;Bing;Land Registry but on the occasion where you miss that there is the changeset comment as well which makes it clear. Looks as if this mapper has covered this angle pretty clearly. In a system where most of the 'rules' are governed by what most people have done, it's no surprise there is variation between how we apply a tag showing our sources. Anyway, if you're looking for a project in OSM, adding addresses is easily accomplished. Personally I currently use Keypad-Mapper 3 & OSMTracker to do my surveying, and the exercise does me the world of good. If anyone fancies joining in, I've outlined how I carry out the process at http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tallguy Regards Nick (Tallguy) On 28/09/13 20:45, Rob Nickerson wrote: == Quote == >I've just noticed (changeset 18037116) someone using this Land >Registry data search tool to actually populate, rather than simply >flag for re-survey postcode data. Given that the Land Registry >require a copyright notice, and, unlike OS Open Data, there is no such >copyright notice on OSM, is this usage actually legal? == End Quote == Hi, Short answer= Yes, its fine, no problems. Long Answer= I was expecting that changeset to be mine, but pleased to see that other people are now using Matt's postcode tool. To answer your question:- The data is available under the standard Open Government Licence (just like the ONS Postcode Centroids that I am also using if it is right above a house), and can therefore be used with attribution. The attribution is on the Contributors page [1] and has been since 31 August 2012. Only a very select few sources are also attributed on the Copyright page [2] and the page makes it clear that you should see the Contributors page for the other sources. Best regards, Rob Nickerson [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Land_Registry_-_Price_paid_data [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Hand-drawn OS maps on Wikimedia Commons
On 26 September 2013 12:39, Andrew Gray wrote: > Each one has been georeferenced by the BL, and the coordinates for a > bounding box and for the exact corner points are available; it's > currently not displaying, but I'll be configuring this tonight. Corner coordinates are now displaying, allowing these to be aligned & adjusted to fit. Have fun! -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
Oh I should add that I am a fan of source tags on the objects myself so I add a "source:postcode=Land Registry 'Price Paid' data" tag (or =ONS Postcode Centroids) to my edits. Not everyone agrees that source tags should be added to the objects, preferring instead to add them to the changeset comment. Regards, Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
== Quote == >I've just noticed (changeset 18037116) someone using this Land >Registry data search tool to actually populate, rather than simply >flag for re-survey postcode data. Given that the Land Registry >require a copyright notice, and, unlike OS Open Data, there is no such >copyright notice on OSM, is this usage actually legal? == End Quote == Hi, Short answer= Yes, its fine, no problems. Long Answer= I was expecting that changeset to be mine, but pleased to see that other people are now using Matt's postcode tool. To answer your question:- The data is available under the standard Open Government Licence (just like the ONS Postcode Centroids that I am also using if it is right above a house), and can therefore be used with attribution. The attribution is on the Contributors page [1] and has been since 31 August 2012. Only a very select few sources are also attributed on the Copyright page [2] and the page makes it clear that you should see the Contributors page for the other sources. Best regards, Rob Nickerson [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Land_Registry_-_Price_paid_data [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
I've just noticed (changeset 18037116) someone using this Land
Registry data search tool to actually populate, rather than simply
flag for re-survey postcode data. Given that the Land Registry
require a copyright notice, and, unlike OS Open Data, there is no such
copyright notice on OSM, is this usage actually legal?
I also note that the source is only given as a changeset comment, not
a source tag.
-- Reply Message --
Nick Allen nick.allen.54 at gmail.com
Thu Sep 13 10:29:23 BST 2012
Matt,
Thanks for your work on this.
I've had a little play & it looks ideal for my purpose & you should
see an improvement in the BR8 area as a direct result.
If your not doing it already, could you put somewhere on the front
page when the data was updated. My initial plan is to have one session
a month correcting & adding postcodes, but you may get other views.
Regards
Nick (Tallguy)
Sent from my HTC
- Reply message -
From: "Matt Williams"
To: "Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org"
Subject: [Talk-GB] Land Registry postcode tool now running
Date: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 01:00
Hi all,
During the discussion about the Land Registry 'Price Paid' database
discussions I promised that I'm put together a tool to make it more
useful. As such I've now got working (to a state I'm happy with) a
sub-website on my Postcode Finder to provide an interface to that
data.
Currently running at
http://milliams.dev.openstreetmap.org/postcodefinder/landregistry/
(there's no public link to it yet so you'll have to bookmark it) it
does the following:
Given a postcode (or postcode fragment) it finds all the houses in the
Land Registry database and tries to match each of them up to an
address in my Postcode Finder database.
If it finds a match it classifies it into one of three classes:
- The postcode matches between OSM and the Land Registry
- The postcode doesn't match
- There's no postcode
If you perform a search (like
http://milliams.dev.openstreetmap.org/postcodefinder/landregistry/search/?postcode=CV4+8)
you see that I've sorted the classes by 'importance' order so wrong
postcodes are first, followed by missing postcodes. Then the ones that
couldn't be matched to any address and finally the perfect matches.
Give it a try yourself. It should be able to handle anything from
"CV4" level (will take around 10 seconds to load (probably more for
big cities like Birmingham and London) down to "CV4 8DU". It will
almost certainly struggle if you try to put in "B" or something big
like that. If you want to search for all the "B1" postcodes but
exclude "B10", "B11" etc (since that would be a very slow query) then
just put a space after it in the search box ("B1 ") or a plus in the
URL ("?postcode=B1+"). It's probably best to only give it as specific
a postcode as is possible ("XXN N" is quite quick) to keep the load
low on the dev server.
There's still some things I want to do with it but it's now in a
workable state. The data from the OSM database is a few days old now.
I'll wait for Geofabrik's ODbL extracts to be released before I update
again.
It should also be possible for me to extend the service to include and
data source which contains "house number; street name; postcode" so
I'll look into that in the future.
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
