Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Andy Street]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 20:02:21 +
David Woolley  wrote:

> As such, the correct way of capitalising the name is what the owner
> of the name wants.

True, and that could potentially vary depending on context.

> Arguably,  if they are not prepared to step in and correct the names 
> themselves, they don't particularly care.

That was largely my thinking. With a general rule we can save
ourselves the trouble of trying to wrangle with uninterested marketing
departments for a "blessed" style and make exceptions as and when
they are required.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[David Woolley]

On 02/11/14 16:11, Andy Street wrote:

What do people think about using upper case for names that are
pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are
pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption
of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that
should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations.


This isn't really about shops in general, it is about a relatively small 
number of national brands.  Some of those brands are nothing much more 
than the intellectual property associated with those brands, e.g. 
franchises and similar arrangements.  As such, the correct way of 
capitalising the name is what the owner of the name wants.


Arguably,  if they are not prepared to step in and correct the names 
themselves, they don't particularly care.


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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Andy Street]

On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 +
Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano

Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be
inclined to take "Brantano (UK) Limited" as further evidence for
"Brantano" over "Brantano Footwear".

> - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda

We have the on-the-ground rule but it seems a stretch to try and
match the formatting of a sign as well as its contents. We are happy
enough to accept roads named "High Street" from street signs
labelled "HIGH ST." so I can't see why shops should be held to a
different standard.

What do people think about using upper case for names that are
pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are
pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption
of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that
should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

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Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

[SK53]

Hi Dan et al.,

I completely agree with both sides here:


   - Matthijs has worked really hard to consult the community and write-up
   what he plans to do. He has used the mechanisms which exist (wiki & the
   mailing list).
   - Using voting on the wiki as a means to determine if something has
   achieved a suitable consensus has never itself achieved any consensus in
   the British OSM community. as witnessed by the both of the strong
NOs from, *inter
   alia*, Richard Fairhurst and Chris Hill. Extending a technique, which
   itself has at best luke-warm support does create an unfortunate precedent.

Generally, voting on the wiki fails because a (self-selected) majority is
not a consensus. Often it is merely a consensus that "we agree to differ".
Consensus decisions often take time, and certainly can't be rushed.

Although I did vote in the bookie/bookmaker decision, I will not
participate in future wiki votes on mechanical edits (in general I usually
regret the rare times I vote on the wiki, because it suggests I support a
process which I think has manifold problems), but I will certainly resent
it, if this means my opnion no longer is taken into account.

My overall feeling about Matthijs various shop-related things is that I
support the objectives.

However, I think that, as no one has complained over much in the past 10
years about these things, we can afford to wait a few weeks or months
before plunging in. (I suspect that one reason why no one has complained is
that the retail datasets just aren't complete enough to be useful compared
to, say, the recent one released by Geolytix. And please dont use this
latter in OSM, they used Google for refining geolocation).

So in summary: let all work on the documentation, discussions, but please
work for consensus and recognise that allowing time to build that will
result in an overall better dataset.

Regards,

Jerry

On 1 November 2014 13:36, Dan S  wrote:

> 2014-11-01 12:50 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst :
> > Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> >> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain
> >> shops within the UK by renaming them.
> >
> > No, it isn't.
> >
> > Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed
> by
> > a vote.
> >
> > From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or
> recommend a
> > formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and
> even
> > minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."
> >
> > We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in
> the
> > UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the
> > reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all"
> vote on
> > the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals
> > without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a
> bulk
> > change, i.e. UK mappers.
> >
> > I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits
> > (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it
> in
> > OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.
>
> The "rationale" part of the webpage* seems to me to set out Matthjis'
> perspective on why to ask for a vote.
>
> Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he
> got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but
> no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you
> only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to
> declare "No it isn't" in the sense of shutting him down when he's
> proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people
> have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now
> this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation.
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
> *
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/14 14:06, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> It is by the way not true that there is no precedent to use votes for
> mechanical edits - the retagging of musical instrument shops has been
> discussed in a similar way, see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument
> and the corresponding discussion on the tagging list.
Tidying a tag value is a different case to amending free format text.
That a tagging method evolves is well documented, and other uses of
those tags can be cleanly documented even if the merged 'spellings' may
actually refer to a different meaning. The renamed tags can be reviewed
fairly easily and may identify additional changes.

> I hope this clarifies this procedure, and I also hope it at least
> takes part of your worries away.
The free format areas are not documented on the wiki although a case
could be made for creating guide lines on a country by country basis.
What ever happens I think that the availability of adding
comments/discussion to a change set perhaps highlights another reason
why if any of these are applied, each should have it's own commit and
then if there is any follow up required it is easy to discuss that via
the change set and revert if required. I still prefer this to be a more
manual process for free format material, but if each change is
documented and processed as any objections are addressed it will
mitigate a little the lack of any real observations confirming the need
for a change ... and opens the door to correcting any collateral damage
more easily.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[David Woolley]

On 02/11/14 13:24, Matthijs Melissen wrote:



- 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano
Some shops signs include the 'Footwear' text, others don't. I would
argue that 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a
description of the shop's activities. For example, we also don't tag
'name=Cafe Nero The Italian coffee company' or 'name=Poundland
Everything's £1'. We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times
Brantano Footwear in the UK. The shop's website doesn't include the
word 'Footwear', but their Twitter does. Opinions?


At least one place on their web site refers to them as Brantano 
Footwear.  My feeling is that this part of the "trading as" name, but 
the problem seems to be that Brantano's marketing director is not very 
strict on such issues.  Some companies, like Microsoft 
, 
will issue strict guidelines to the press and to other businesses using 
their name, as to the exact form of their name to be used.  Being at the 
end of the supply chain, shops have less need for this.	


Brantano don't have a distinct corporate web site and don't seem to have 
a trademarks guidelines document.  They do have a contact address for 
their press officer, which might be the way to find out the, current, 
official position.



believe that Jones Bootmaker, Lloyds Bank, Halifax, Pizza Express,


Lloyds Bank is an example of where the description of the business is 
definitely part of the trading as name.  This is probably to avoid 
confusion with Lloyd's, a different sort of financial services 
organisation.  The latter does have heavyweight branding guidelines.



Cafe Rouge, Greggs, Primark, and Max Spielmann should be tagged in
uppercase too. The fact that the names are abbreviations is not a
reason to capitalize either: ASDA stands for Asquith and Dairies, so
the etymology gives no reason for capitalizing the S, at least. Aldi
and Lidl use lowercase on their website, while SPAR uses uppercase,


SPAR state that SPAR is a registered trademark on their legal page. 
Unfortunately that same page forbids deep linking, so I can't tell you 
where it is :-(  Whilst that could be for stress, their consistent use 
elsewhere makes me think that capitalisation is part of the trademark.



and Asda/ASDA uses a mix. I'm not sure what to do here.


ASDA's legal pages consistently capitalises, even though they seem to 
use Asda in press releases.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 1 November 2014 12:50, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by
> a vote.
>
> From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or recommend a
> formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even
> minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."
>
> We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the
> UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the
> reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all" vote on
> the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals
> without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk
> change, i.e. UK mappers.
>
> I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits
> (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in
> OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.

Thank you for your comments, I understand your worries. I agree that
voting is not the ultimate means of deciding whether a mechanical edit
can go ahead or not - I'm sorry if my phrasing made you believe
otherwise.

The ultimate authority to decide whether an automatic edit is
acceptable or not is the OSMF, who delegate this responsibility to the
DWG.  We (unfortunately) don't know exactly what criteria the DWG use.
However, the DWG has repeatedly indicated that they strongly rely on
the position of the community. To avoid a long trail of 'me too'
reactions, as well as to avoid giving too much weight to the loudest
voices, I think voting is the best way to determine the position of
the community.

The DWG has in the past never made decisions that go against the
preference of the community. So I think it is likely that a decision
taken with (significant) community support will also pass the scrutiny
of the DWG. I agree however this is by no means a guarantee -
especially in cases, like you point out, where there is strong
evidence that the voting results do not reflect the opinions of the
community.

It is by the way not true that there is no precedent to use votes for
mechanical edits - the retagging of musical instrument shops has been
discussed in a similar way, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument
and the corresponding discussion on the tagging list.

I hope this clarifies this procedure, and I also hope it at least
takes part of your worries away.

Kind regards,
Matthijs Melissen

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[Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Matthijs Melissen]

Dear all,

During the voting phase, a number of comments on the shop renaming
proposal have been brought forward that were not voiced during the
discussion phase (both here and on the voting page). Because I think
it is important to act as carefully as possible when executing
automatic edits, I have stopped the voting, and will bring this
proposal back to the discussion phase. My apologies to those who voted
already.

The main points of discussion, apart from those by people who don't
support automatic edits in general, were as follows. Note that in all
cases, we have the option to choose either of both options, but also
the option to do nothing at all.

- 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano
Some shops signs include the 'Footwear' text, others don't. I would
argue that 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a
description of the shop's activities. For example, we also don't tag
'name=Cafe Nero The Italian coffee company' or 'name=Poundland
Everything's £1'. We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times
Brantano Footwear in the UK. The shop's website doesn't include the
word 'Footwear', but their Twitter does. Opinions?

- Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda
There is no agreement on whether these names should be capitalized or
not. The spelling on the sign is not sufficient evidence, unless we
believe that Jones Bootmaker, Lloyds Bank, Halifax, Pizza Express,
Cafe Rouge, Greggs, Primark, and Max Spielmann should be tagged in
uppercase too. The fact that the names are abbreviations is not a
reason to capitalize either: ASDA stands for Asquith and Dairies, so
the etymology gives no reason for capitalizing the S, at least. Aldi
and Lidl use lowercase on their website, while SPAR uses uppercase,
and Asda/ASDA uses a mix. I'm not sure what to do here.

- The change for Jewson was given in the wrong direction in the
initial proposal. The name Jewsons should be changed to Jewson, and I
will change the proposal accordingly.

The current proposal can be found here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names
Please let me know what you think of these issues, and if there are
any other changes you want to discuss.

Kind regards,
Matthijs

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