Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Silent Spike]

I've seen a suggestion somewhere to contact amazon about the possibility of
running street imagery cameras. Would be a great way to get many local
details available for so-called armchair mappers.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 2:14 PM Dave F via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> It would be good if they could add address data. Probably not postcodes
> - I assume they're a customer of Royal Mail's PAF, but house numbers &
> names.
>
> DaveF
>
> On 29/07/2019 13:32, Gregory Marler wrote:
> > I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their
> team
> > lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would
> > encourage the person who spots it to...
> > a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the
> > changeset)
> > b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
> > c) a combination of the above.
> >
> > Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work
> to
> > improve it (great).
> > They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but
> > they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of
> > countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in
> > similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.
> >
> > Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have
> had
> > something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is
> > used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.
> >
> > Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all
> of
> > us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity
> > line, but you may see me add the pylon.
> >
> >
> > Happy mapping everyone,
> > Gregory.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

It would be good if they could add address data. Probably not postcodes 
- I assume they're a customer of Royal Mail's PAF, but house numbers & 
names.


DaveF

On 29/07/2019 13:32, Gregory Marler wrote:

I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their team
lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would
encourage the person who spots it to...
a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the
changeset)
b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
c) a combination of the above.

Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work to
improve it (great).
They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but
they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of
countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in
similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.

Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have had
something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is
used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.

Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all of
us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity
line, but you may see me add the pylon.


Happy mapping everyone,
Gregory.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Gregory Marler]

I've exchanged a number of messages with the Amazon mappers and their team
lead Jothirnadh. First of all, if anything isn't quite right then I would
encourage the person who spots it to...
a) contact the editor about it (or better if you post a comment on the
changeset)
b) add tags yourself to further clarify the way (OSM is a wiki).
c) a combination of the above.

Amazon are using OpenStreetMap (great) and they are putting in some work to
improve it (great).
They've been a bit behind on widely communicating with the community, but
they are slowly getting better. They're also working in a number of
countries, where similar concerns are coming up, and they're replying in
similar ways. They are keen to learn and do better.

Communication certainly helps people get better. Most (all?) of us have had
something we've learnt from other mappers. Often we don't know a tag is
used, or we don't know the map data is used in a certain way.

Amazon obviously have their specific interests in mapping, but so do all of
us. You're unlikely to see me adding tags for voltage of an electricity
line, but you may see me add the pylon.


Happy mapping everyone,
Gregory.



On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 13:10, Dave F via Talk-GB 
wrote:

> I'm aware how construction sites work.
>
> Trades will occasionally have small items delivered, especially if
> specialized or in an emergency.  A foreman I know had his kid's
> Christmas present sent to site to keep the surprise.
>
> Please provide an OSM link to the site.
>
> DaveF
>
> On 29/07/2019 12:25, ael via Talk-GB wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:39:11AM +0100, Dave F wrote:
> >> Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
> >> deliveries.
> > This construction area is inaccesible for anything but large specialist
> > vehicles with all-terrain tyres. The construction workers are all
> > instructed to ask visitors to leave. There are locked gates, only
> > unlocked for construction vehicles to get through. It is a Health and
> > Safety issue, I suspect, and probably required by their insurance
> > company.  No doubt there are deliveries to the peripheral areas, but
> > that is nearly always by specialist building supplies companies with
> > suitable vehicles. I spoke informally in context, so it seems a bit
> > picky to question this. The particular roads that they marked
> > (residential, as I recall) were at that time bare ground tracks, fenced
> > off and were being used for access to other parts by the construction
> > vehicles.  Those details could not be seen on the satelite imagery which
> > happened to have very recent updates in this area.  Later they will
> > presumably be surfaced and become proper roads: the developers gave me a
> > copy of their plans.  As I recall, they are now tagged corrected as
> > construction roads.  As far as I am concerned, I don't think an access
> > tag on construction roads makes sense in any normal situation.
> > Construction implies that the access will vary over time.
> >
> >> Please provide a link.
> > The link is my personal knowledge and my regular visits on bicycle with
> > gps. I occasionally do enter such areas to get a gps trace in advance of
> > the completion of the roads, but only with great care and caution, and
> > always leave if and when asked to do so. Sometimes site-managers give me
> > permission to collect a trace when I explain what I am doing.
> >
> > Are you telling me that Amazon have driven a large non-construction
> > vehicle on these unfinished roads with locked gates and construction
> > workers around in working hours?
> >
> > ael
> >
> >
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>
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-- 
Gregory Marler
No More Grapes
07939 689 691
i...@nomoregrapes.com
http://www.nomoregrapes.com
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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

I'm aware how construction sites work.

Trades will occasionally have small items delivered, especially if 
specialized or in an emergency.  A foreman I know had his kid's 
Christmas present sent to site to keep the surprise.


Please provide an OSM link to the site.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 12:25, ael via Talk-GB wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 11:39:11AM +0100, Dave F wrote:

Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of
deliveries.

This construction area is inaccesible for anything but large specialist
vehicles with all-terrain tyres. The construction workers are all
instructed to ask visitors to leave. There are locked gates, only
unlocked for construction vehicles to get through. It is a Health and
Safety issue, I suspect, and probably required by their insurance
company.  No doubt there are deliveries to the peripheral areas, but
that is nearly always by specialist building supplies companies with
suitable vehicles. I spoke informally in context, so it seems a bit
picky to question this. The particular roads that they marked
(residential, as I recall) were at that time bare ground tracks, fenced
off and were being used for access to other parts by the construction
vehicles.  Those details could not be seen on the satelite imagery which
happened to have very recent updates in this area.  Later they will
presumably be surfaced and become proper roads: the developers gave me a
copy of their plans.  As I recall, they are now tagged corrected as
construction roads.  As far as I am concerned, I don't think an access
tag on construction roads makes sense in any normal situation.
Construction implies that the access will vary over time.


Please provide a link.

The link is my personal knowledge and my regular visits on bicycle with
gps. I occasionally do enter such areas to get a gps trace in advance of
the completion of the roads, but only with great care and caution, and
always leave if and when asked to do so. Sometimes site-managers give me
permission to collect a trace when I explain what I am doing.

Are you telling me that Amazon have driven a large non-construction
vehicle on these unfinished roads with locked gates and construction
workers around in working hours?

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Martin Wynne]

On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added.


Amazon have been asking for help with this, see:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

Construction areas aren't inaccessible. They have constant traffic of 
deliveries.

Please provide a link.

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 11:21, ael wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:

"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.

In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
was definitely armchair mapping.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

Andy

There is nothing wrong with adding just highway=service.

If you know that the OSM database can be improved by adding additional 
tags, then do so. (Although I note you're not too sure, yourself)


As I understand it Amazon have gpx traces from their delivery vehicles 
along roads which the general public have little or no access to. Their 
mappers having been adding good detail


Of course, they make mistakes; who doesn't. If you spot any please 
rectify or contact the mapper. I've had good feedback from them.


From the evidence I've no "concerns".

DaveF

On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact osm-edit-escalati...@amazon.com" in their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dan S]

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 11:22 schreef ael :
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:
> > "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
> > understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
> > significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
>
> In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
> logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
> was definitely armchair mapping.

That's useful to know, thanks

Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[ael]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:42:27AM +0100, Dan S wrote:
> "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
> understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
> significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.

In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS
logs. The construction area was inaccesible, even on a bicycle. It
was definitely armchair mapping.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[ael]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:35:36AM +0100, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
>  [snip]
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

I noticed a similar problem in a area that I regularly survey. I
contacted them and someone else from Amazon logistics replied
and corrected the mistakes.

Had the original Amazon armchair mapper looked at the history and the source
tags, he/she should have realized that the area was being actively
mapped with regular gps surveys.

Sadly, it is not only Amazon armchair mappers who neglect to do basic checks
before changing things.

So, yes, I have some concerns. But maybe they are doing useful work in
area without local mappers. Perhaps they should be encouraged to be more
careful?

ael



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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Jez Nicholson]

This can be where having the OSMUK organisation comes in useful. It gives a
focal point to discuss organisation to organisation. We will continue to
open a channel of communication.

Personally, I'm excited that Amazon are both users of, and contributing
back to OSM. As long as they behave as a good citizen.

- Jez

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:29 Gareth L,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Amazon are indeed adding service roads at quite a pace, although with gps
> from their drivers and aerial imagery to support.
> As noted here
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2019-July/023252.html they
> are responding and soliciting to community feedback on their tagging, which
> I consider quite responsible.
>
> Driveways are a refinement of highway=service, so tagging it as highway
> service strikes me as a decent start to incrementing the detail of the map.
> So far I’ve only seen them add missing ways rather than alter existing
> ones, or revert some tagging they did on the ways they created following
> community feedback.
>
> I agree with you, Andy, that their user profile boilerplate messages could
> be more helpful. An email address isn’t the most transparent way of seeing
> what concerns are being raised.
>
> Gareth
>
> On 29 Jul 2019, at 09:43, Dan S  wrote:
>
> "stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
> understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
> significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
> (Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
> irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
> nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
> their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?
>
> Best
> Dan
>
> Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson :
>
>
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
>
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
>
> driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
>
> The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work
> for
>
> Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
>
> cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
>
> programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the
> OSM
>
> community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
>
> the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to
> name
>
> a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that
> information
>
> for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
>
> questions, please contact osm-edit-escalati...@amazon.com" in their
> username
>
> profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
>
> of the edits are.
>
>
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Gareth L]

Hello,

Amazon are indeed adding service roads at quite a pace, although with gps from 
their drivers and aerial imagery to support.
As noted here 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2019-July/023252.html they 
are responding and soliciting to community feedback on their tagging, which I 
consider quite responsible.

Driveways are a refinement of highway=service, so tagging it as highway service 
strikes me as a decent start to incrementing the detail of the map. So far I’ve 
only seen them add missing ways rather than alter existing ones, or revert some 
tagging they did on the ways they created following community feedback.

I agree with you, Andy, that their user profile boilerplate messages could be 
more helpful. An email address isn’t the most transparent way of seeing what 
concerns are being raised.

Gareth

On 29 Jul 2019, at 09:43, Dan S 
mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
(Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?

Best
Dan

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson 
mailto:ajrli...@gmail.com>>:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact 
osm-edit-escalati...@amazon.com" in 
their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Dan S]

"stinks of armchair mapping" - that sounds rather derogatory. My
understanding is that these are organised edits informed in
significant part by Amazon's own GPS logs from their delivery staff.
(Am I misunderstanding?) If so, referring to it as "armchair" is
irrelevant; either way, referring to it as "stinks" is just not very
nice. If they should be adding driveway tags then how about emailing
their nominated contact address and teaching them the good ways?

Best
Dan

Op ma 29 jul. 2019 om 09:37 schreef Andy Robinson :
>
> I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
> service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
> driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
> The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
> Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
> cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
> programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
> community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
> the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
> a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
> for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
> questions, please contact osm-edit-escalati...@amazon.com" in their username
> profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
> of the edits are.
>
> Anyone else have concerns over benefits?
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
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[Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[Andy Robinson]

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area. A lot of
service roads are getting added which on face value look perhaps to be
driveways but that tag hasn't been added. Just stinks of armchair mapping.
The users (three I spotted off the bat) all have the following   "I work for
Amazon Logistics. At Amazon Logistics, we've been utilizing OSM in some
cases related to our delivery programs. In connection with those delivery
programs, we have collected information that we think is valuable to the OSM
community such as names and info about new roads that are not currently in
the map today, new data on turn restrictions, and road connectivity, to name
a few. When we hear feedback, we've been editing to provide that information
for the benefit of the entire OSM user community. If you have more
questions, please contact osm-edit-escalati...@amazon.com" in their username
profiles but there is no link to what's really going on and what the basis
of the edits are.

Anyone else have concerns over benefits?

Cheers
Andy


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