Re: [Talk-GB] Poly Tunnels vs Greenhouses
On 08/11/2019 20:50, Philip Barnes wrote: No problem with boats and greenhouses that don't move. But these are probably seasonal and certainly shouldn't be mapped from aerial imagery alone as they may have long gone. They certainly need a recent survey. I don't think polytunnels in open fields should be mapped, for this reason. They are seasonal and transient. They will be there for part of the year, and then removed after the growing season, and may not be used again on the same field the following year. However, there are some permanent polytunnels that are, effectively, plastic greenhouses. Those can, and should, be mapped. But it needs local knowledge to map them. You can't do it from imagery. It reminds me of the time an armchair mapper carefully traced a Maize Maze that had existed for a short time in a field near me a couple of years earlier. I'm pleased to see that we do have the Hampton Court Maze mapped, though :-) Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] The Range - looking for tagging consensus
Added a new Range store a couple of weeks ago as shop=houseware although shop=homeware would be fine as well. I think department store has some Grace Brothers style connotations regarding layout that The Range doesn't have at all. Kevin On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Silent Spike wrote: > ... > I'm actually leaning towards department store, but feel like OSM needs a new > tag to specify which departments a department store has so that we can > distinguish the huge ones from smaller ones like The Range or Laura Ashley > (another brand I've struggled with categorising). ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Poly Tunnels vs Greenhouses
No problem with boats and greenhouses that don't move. But these are probably seasonal and certainly shouldn't be mapped from aerial imagery alone as they may have long gone. They certainly need a recent survey. It reminds me of the time an armchair mapper carefully traced a Maize Maze that had existed for a short time in a field near me a couple of years earlier. Phil (trigpoint) On Friday, 8 November 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > We have over 1800 building=tent and over 14 000 building=houseboat. > > I feel comfortable with tagging them as building=greenhouse. > > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building#values > > disclaimer: not from UK, but have plenty of objects matching this description > > 8 Nov 2019, 20:18 by bpran...@gmail.com: > > > Hi Everyone > > > > Large areas of farmland are being covered with poly tunnels which are > > readily apparent from aerial imagery which are sometimes tagged as > > building=greenhouse. I've always hesitated from tagging them at all as they > > are not to me really buildings: they are more temporarily constructed, > > using cheap materials akin to a transparent tent or marquee and certainly > > without permanent foundations. > > They could certainly be tagged as man_made= ( but what? ). No great > > preferences here from me but it would be good to have a UK tagging guideline > > > > Regards > > > > Brian > > > > -- Sent from my Sailfish device ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Poly Tunnels vs Greenhouses
Large areas of farmland are being covered with poly tunnels which are readily apparent from aerial imagery which are sometimes tagged as building=greenhouse. Hi Brian, OS call them "glasshouse" rather than "greenhouse". But if they are plastic... Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Poly Tunnels vs Greenhouses
We have over 1800 building=tent and over 14 000 building=houseboat. I feel comfortable with tagging them as building=greenhouse. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building#values disclaimer: not from UK, but have plenty of objects matching this description 8 Nov 2019, 20:18 by bpran...@gmail.com: > Hi Everyone > > Large areas of farmland are being covered with poly tunnels which are readily > apparent from aerial imagery which are sometimes tagged as > building=greenhouse. I've always hesitated from tagging them at all as they > are not to me really buildings: they are more temporarily constructed, using > cheap materials akin to a transparent tent or marquee and certainly without > permanent foundations. > They could certainly be tagged as man_made= ( but what? ). No great > preferences here from me but it would be good to have a UK tagging guideline > > Regards > > Brian > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Poly Tunnels vs Greenhouses
Hi Everyone Large areas of farmland are being covered with poly tunnels which are readily apparent from aerial imagery which are sometimes tagged as building=greenhouse. I've always hesitated from tagging them at all as they are not to me really buildings: they are more temporarily constructed, using cheap materials akin to a transparent tent or marquee and certainly without permanent foundations. They could certainly be tagged as man_made= ( but what? ). No great preferences here from me but it would be good to have a UK tagging guideline Regards Brian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index
Could make them all fast food outlets? Bakewell tarts, Melton Mowbray pies, Cornish Pasties, and my favourite Cartmel sticky toffee puddings…… Chocolate might just be a cuisine? Or is that just stirring the pot J Cheers Andy From: SK53 [mailto:sk53@gmail.com] Sent: 08 November 2019 11:54 To: Peter Neale Cc: Talk GB Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index I wish there was a general rule which could be easily formulated: certainly it would be useful to make some useful rules-of-thumb more explicit. Below is a crude attempt at some considerations. Broadly speaking the shop=confectionery, confectionery=chocolate is probably what works best. The issue is not specifically chocolate but, as DaveF pointed out earlier in the thread, all the other specialist sweet/cake shops selling local specialties such as fudge or toffee (or perhaps even Bakewell Puddings). There are probably lots of these special cases which is usually a good sign to stick with the more general tag. The other issue is that a tag has to work across the globe & the presence of significant numbers of South Asian sweet outlets in Britain also suggests sticking with the more general tag. Also confectionery is more widely used & has a much longer usage. So both sets of tags need to be looked at anyway if one is looking for chocolate shops. Lastly using a subtag (confectionery) always means one is adding information and not changing the meaning of an existing tag. shop=chocolate implies that shop=confectionery is a shop which sells sweet things except chocolate. The archetypal shop tag where a more general value is better than a specific one is shop=beauty. Some will be pure nail bars, but many offer a bewildering array of treatments. The general tag allows one not to have to worry about all this detail unless one is specifically interested. For really posh chocolate shops (not Hotel Chocolat or Thorntons) one could add craft=chocolatier (but be careful, many years ago I remember being disappointed to discover that the Belgiian chocolate firm Godiva was owned by Campbells Soup). Jerry On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 11:01, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and)? Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"? (I am a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) Regards, Peter On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike wrote: I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands. "The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today. "Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value). If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either: - Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it - If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] The Range - looking for tagging consensus
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 12:08 PM SK53 wrote: > So I'd favour the remaining candidates & I think housewares or homewares > is probably a better fit. > The issue with houseware, if we're going by the wiki ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhouseware), is that it also seems overly restrictive: "A shop that focuses on small items, like cutlery, crockery, cookware and decorative items". I'm actually leaning towards department store, but feel like OSM needs a new tag to specify which departments a department store has so that we can distinguish the huge ones from smaller ones like The Range or Laura Ashley (another brand I've struggled with categorising). ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] The Range - looking for tagging consensus
Thanks for doing this: I had wondered who the fairy was! As is often the case it might be easier to say which tags look out of place. - Department store should be reserved for what are classically called department stores and larger shops of the M type, not for a shop with a number of different departments (think Woolies before it closed and Wilkos now). These latter I would characterise as variety stores (because that's how Woolies was described in the trade press). Clothes have always been a major category for department stores & the absence of a broad clothing offering is, I think, a straight disqualification. (Aside: this is a good example of where some over-generalisation of a tag meaning actually devalues the overall value of the tag) - DIY looks wrong too. Some of the items in their DIY section just look like house wares to me (fans, dehumidifier etc), and many ranges are smaller than one would find in a small neighbourhood hardware shop. - Furniture Garden Centre & Interior Decoration, whilst all categories stocked at The Range are too restrictive in meaning. So I'd favour the remaining candidates & I think housewares or homewares is probably a better fit. Jerry On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 10:50, Silent Spike wrote: > This brand was brought up in the name suggestion index thread as one that > doesn't currently have an entry due to it being tricky to determine the > best tagging. > > I'm a UK based maintainer of the project and would like to get it added, > but am not comfortable making a tagging judgement call alone without > consulting the UK community. > > It looks like currently there are: > >- 21 shop=department_store >- 18 shop=doityourself >- 15 shop=variety_store >- 14 shop=houseware >- 6 shop=furniture >- 5 shop=interior_decoration >- 3 shop=garden_centre > > > Probably a few others too. Personally I'd rule out `variety_store` as per > the wiki "a variety store or price-point retailer is a retail shop that > sells inexpensive items" (think Poundland). > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index
I wish there was a general rule which could be easily formulated: certainly it would be useful to make some useful rules-of-thumb more explicit. Below is a crude attempt at some considerations. Broadly speaking the shop=confectionery, confectionery=chocolate is probably what works best. The issue is not specifically chocolate but, as DaveF pointed out earlier in the thread, all the other specialist sweet/cake shops selling local specialties such as fudge or toffee (or perhaps even Bakewell Puddings). There are probably lots of these special cases which is usually a good sign to stick with the more general tag. The other issue is that a tag has to work across the globe & the presence of significant numbers of South Asian sweet outlets in Britain also suggests sticking with the more general tag. Also confectionery is more widely used & has a much longer usage. So both sets of tags need to be looked at anyway if one is looking for chocolate shops. Lastly using a subtag (confectionery) always means one is adding information and not changing the meaning of an existing tag. shop=chocolate implies that shop=confectionery is a shop which sells sweet things except chocolate. The archetypal shop tag where a more general value is better than a specific one is shop=beauty. Some will be pure nail bars, but many offer a bewildering array of treatments. The general tag allows one not to have to worry about all this detail unless one is specifically interested. For really posh chocolate shops (not Hotel Chocolat or Thorntons) one could add craft=chocolatier (but be careful, many years ago I remember being disappointed to discover that the Belgiian chocolate firm Godiva was owned by Campbells Soup). Jerry On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 11:01, Peter Neale via Talk-GB < talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate > is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain > "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to > search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled > sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and)? > > Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"? (I am > a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) > > Regards, > Peter > > > On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike < > silentspike...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes > directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working > my way through UK brands. > > "The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the > most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for > cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll > actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today. > > "Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely > because it was the established tagging. If there is some community > consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the > index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via > `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value). > > If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd > suggest either: > - Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable > with git and json) and all contributors will then see it > - If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things > up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see > them and can either open an issue or push changes > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index
Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and)? Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"? (I am a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) Regards,Peter On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike wrote: I'm a(UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands. "The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today. "Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value). If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either:- Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it- If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index
I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands. "The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today. "Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value). If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either: - Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it - If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
